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Post by justvisiting on Aug 22, 2012 13:54:43 GMT -6
There is a practice in the military called a rock drill. In a rock drill, you make a proposed move of your forces, then discuss friendly and enemy situation, and possible enemy responses. Basically, I do this, he does that, then I do this. We call it a rock drill,...ummmm, because we use rocks. We create a terrain model on the ground of the area,and then use rocks, toy soldiers, tanks to represent units. It may sound silly, but it is an excellent way to get everyone on the same sheet of music,especially if involving units who speak different languages. (In some missions in Africa, I would give an order in English, which gets translated in the primary language the officers speak (English, French, or Arabic) and then translated into the tribal tongues the soldiers spoke. Anyone want to volunteer to lead the assault element, knowing that your life depends on the guys at the end of the chain knowing when to lift or shift fires? Friendly fire: isn't that friendly). I think using a rock drill approach may be useful in sparking a discussion of the battle. The amusing part is we use blue and red as the terms for the sides in the exercise, which is appropriate here. Maybe QC,DC, Fred blue, Steve, Billy, myself red, or whatever people prefer. I would like help from former military folks in explaining and assisting, but this format can encompass everyone,which is the point of the exercise. If there is an interest, I can start work to put something together. Respectfully, William Cool! I'm willing as I'm one of the less-knowledgeable people about the Custer Cluster on these boards. William, is this similar to what occurs during the CGSC staff rides? I haven't found it yet but there is an urban legend that during staff rides at LBH, the officers found themselves agreeing with what GAC did. Billy
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Post by quincannon on Aug 22, 2012 14:59:04 GMT -6
Billy: I am of the opinion, and it may surprise a lot of people, that there was absolutely nothing wrong with what Custer did, had he sufficient forces, say a full up brigade of three regiments (1200 per). Even in the days of horse cavalry with no electronic communications it would have worked I think. Even three six hundred man regiments would have worked. Three battalions of 210, and 150 plus or minus for the other two were insufficent for the task.
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Post by montrose on Aug 22, 2012 15:03:53 GMT -6
Okay. I will start the rock drill at the decision point where LTC Custer launched an attack with his advance guard.
Before DC kicks me, the command and control system of Blue and Red are different. Blue has a mechanistic organization design, where there is an established heirarchy andstructured decision making process.
Red has an organic organization design where subordinate units make decisions on their own, based on what they see. There is no master brain, but many spontaneous decisions. Red has a faster reaction time to what they see,but lacks big picture decisions.
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Post by rosebud on Aug 22, 2012 15:14:44 GMT -6
Billy: I am of the opinion, and it may surprise a lot of people, that there was absolutely nothing wrong with what Custer did, had he sufficient forces,
If this is the case. I must assume that you would agree Custer did absolutely nothing wrong, PROVIDED he was facing 2500 Indians, or less than 2500.
The ONLY evidence of larger numbers come from the Crow scouts at the Crows nest. And we know how much faith they had in the scouts, don't we?
I also agree that Custer made no mistakes when hindsight is not in play. In the past, I disagreed with the Benteen side trip, something I felt could have been done by scouts. However I was wrong and would now send Benteen to the left. Rosebud
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Post by montrose on Aug 22, 2012 15:17:40 GMT -6
Ok, when GAC launched Reno on an attack, what was the situation?
A critical factor was whether the village was upstream or downstream of the Ash Creek and LBH junction. Everything pointed to downstream. Remember Varnum had just reported in before this decision. SO add in this report,smoke, dust etc; Probable that Red is north of the Ash Creek, LBH intersection.
My chemo drugs affect my eyes, my focal point changes. I will write the starter rock drill event as soon as my vision stabilizes, just bear with me.
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Post by quincannon on Aug 22, 2012 15:21:25 GMT -6
Rosebud: If you think I am going to again get involved in one of you self fullfilling pissing contests, forget it.
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Post by rosebud on Aug 22, 2012 16:26:42 GMT -6
Rosebud: If you think I am going to again get involved in one of you self fullfilling pissing contests, forget it.Once again you get the ball rolling and blame it on ME? Nice try. Boy you have thin skin. What did I say this time? AARRGGG. Be a big boy and get over it Its up to you....your choice. Rosebud
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Post by bc on Aug 22, 2012 20:13:40 GMT -6
Billy: I am of the opinion, and it may surprise a lot of people, that there was absolutely nothing wrong with what Custer did, had he sufficient forces, say a full up brigade of three regiments (1200 per). Even in the days of horse cavalry with no electronic communications it would have worked I think. Even three six hundred man regiments would have worked. Three battalions of 210, and 150 plus or minus for the other two were insufficent for the task. and/or if Custer would have run into a village a third of the size of the one that he did. Which was about what all their intel had been telling them up to June 22. Blue and Red, gotta love them colors. The Custer battle is now official. Custer has made the military channel and is on right now. Just got done watching Pickett's Last Stand and now Custer's Charge is on (the 2002 version anyway). bc
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Post by benteen on Aug 22, 2012 21:09:43 GMT -6
Britt,
Thanks for letting me know that Custer was on the Military channel, I went and watched it. of course I have seen it before, but of all the Custer documentaries this is my favorite. I know people will argue with Dr Fox and his findings but for me this is the most accurate. The battle was a complete rout. it only lasted for about 1/2 hour, the soldiers fled in panic (Who could blame them). There was no last stand.
Be well Dan
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Post by wild on Aug 23, 2012 0:43:59 GMT -6
Dan, I'm with you. Once in action unsupported cavalry had but two options and that is to charge or run.Stationary cavalry rank below noncombatants in the sandbox because unlike civilians, discipline and leadership will delay life saving panic,scattering and running. The order to dismount at LSH prevented the escape of at least a few troopers.[Maybe the officers who had the better mounts]
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Post by quincannon on Aug 23, 2012 7:29:40 GMT -6
Dan and Richard: I had seen this before also and caught the last half hour or so. Fox makes some assumptions that I don't think are completely supportable, but most of what he puts out I believe to be valid. I think you both look at this fight in the correct light that cavalry is weak on the defense by design, both then and now, for defending is not their job. Anyone who gives up mobility when the other guy has equal or superior mobility is just asking for it. If you fail to use that mobility you have to extract yourself from an untenable positiion, and you had the opportunity to do so in an orderly (at least semi-orderly) manner, as Custer did have, and you don't take advantage of it, then I think you just may deserve what you get.
I don't know what drove this man to make the decisions he made post 3411. Maybe he believed his own press clipping, but I have been around long enough to understand that some you win and some you lose, and when it looks like your going to lose it is better to save what you can, and like Scarlet O'Hara says - I'll think about that tomorrow. There is always tomorrow.
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Post by justvisiting on Aug 23, 2012 7:37:25 GMT -6
Ok, when GAC launched Reno on an attack, what was the situation? A critical factor was whether the village was upstream or downstream of the Ash Creek and LBH junction. Everything pointed to downstream. Remember Varnum had just reported in before this decision. SO add in this report,smoke, dust etc; Probable that Red is north of the Ash Creek, LBH intersection. My chemo drugs affect my eyes, my focal point changes. I will write the starter rock drill event as soon as my vision stabilizes, just bear with me. William, sorry to hear about you needing chemo. Good luck! As for the rock drill, wouldn't the best place to start be after crossing the divide? That way we incorporate the intel from the Crow's Nest, the hardtack Indians and the detachment of Benteen to the south. Best of wishes, Billy
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Post by rosebud on Aug 23, 2012 8:14:19 GMT -6
As for the rock drill, wouldn't the best place to start be after crossing the divide? That way we incorporate the intel from the Crow's Nest, the hardtack Indians and the detachment of Benteen to the south.
Best of wishes,
Due to the fact that this board is made up of mostly ex-officers, I think you need to go back to the Busby bend. This is when Custer made the decision NOT to keep to the Rosebud and go to the headwaters of the Tongue River.
Many feel Custer disobeyed orders when he left the Rosebud for the Crows nest. Fred has made this abundantly clear in many of his posts.
So, Custer's first real decision comes at the Busby Bend on the Rosebud.
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Post by Dark Cloud on Aug 23, 2012 8:39:43 GMT -6
This board isn't even composed mostly of ex-servicemen, much less officers. Of those few who served, fewer yet are combat vets.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Aug 23, 2012 8:53:18 GMT -6
Good luck with your treatment Will, I was sorry to hear about you having Chemo. I will be up for any new info concerning the rock drill concept, its your baby so I will await your orders. Ian.
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