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Post by dave on Mar 22, 2015 15:12:25 GMT -6
HR
I am by far the weakest link in this board but even I know that you can not take future events and apply them to the past. What ever problems Reno had with alcohol later on does not matter in this discussion.
You claim it was Reno's fault and he would not accept it. What was his fault?
You mention the loss of his drinking buddy being shot in the head in front of him? Bloody Knife was his drinking buddy?
Offering Mrs. Custer's works as proof of what? I am at sea trying perceive your point in this post.
Regards
Dave
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Post by herosrest on Mar 22, 2015 15:37:07 GMT -6
It was said previously, in excuse I guess, 'He (Reno) saw, or was informed, that Custer was across the river up on the bluffs. Custer was of no help to Reno and he knew it.' Well taking this to be that Reno knew Custer was of no to him (Reno), this is completely wrong thinking. Reno was where he was with a job to do. Support he was promised was arriving. Reno did not do his job, because he most certainly could have remained in place until Benteen arrived. Another three companies halved the odds and there were as nearly many men to arrive again with packs and rear-guard which is a very different fight to three companies on 800-1000.
Taking the other tack, all Custer had to do was attack. Cross the river and attack and he did not. Unfortunately for Reno, Custer cannot explain why he did not do that, and neither can anyone with him, except Curley - to whom no-one listens. Reno carries the can because he retreated from the fight without orders. Afterwards in perfectly normal human behaviour, done in spades, he CYA and got away with it. We still today do not know why Custer did not attack but he may have delayed awaiting Benteen's arrival. That is perfect military logic and quite sensible. You see, Reno didn't have a problem until a half his fighting strength disappeared into the timber andf were stood in rank beside their horses. Those in the timber were not short of ammunition, stood beside their saddle-bags. As the few men actually still fighting began falling bak, they were attacked - having invited, exactly what happened.
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Post by herosrest on Mar 22, 2015 15:40:01 GMT -6
It was said previously, in excuse I guess, 'He (Reno) saw, or was informed, that Custer was across the river up on the bluffs. Custer was of no help to Reno and he knew it.' Well taking this to be that Reno knew Custer was of no to him (Reno), this is completely wrong thinking. Reno was where he was with a job to do. Support he was promised was arriving. Reno did not do his job, because he most certainly could have remained in place until Benteen arrived. Another three companies halved the odds and there were as nearly many men to arrive again with packs and rear-guard which is a very different fight to three companies on 800-1000.
Taking the other tack, all Custer had to do was attack. Cross the river and attack and he did not. Unfortunately for Reno, Custer cannot explain why he did not do that, and neither can anyone with him, except Curley - to whom no-one listens. Reno carries the can because he retreated from the fight without orders. Afterwards in perfectly normal human behaviour, done in spades, he CYA and got away with it. We still today do not know why Custer did not attack but he may have delayed awaiting Benteen's arrival. That is perfect military logic and quite sensible. You see, Reno didn't have a problem until a half his fighting strength disappeared into the timber andf were stood in rank beside their horses. Those in the timber were not short of ammunition, stood beside their saddle-bags. As the few men actually still fighting began falling bak, they were attacked - having invited, exactly what happened.
I was just browsing Kuhlman's take on the valley fight. You simply have to read it going wtf was Reno doing, and Kuhlman was very far from harsh.
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Post by Colt45 on Mar 22, 2015 15:55:11 GMT -6
HR, Can you explain to me how Custer could be in support of Reno, when he is across the river, probably 1/2 to 3/4 mile lateral distance away and 200 feet higher in elevation, and Reno is launching into the village, expecting the rest of the regiment to support him? That support is needed as soon as the hostiles confront Reno. He didn't have a large enough force to do more than get the hostiles to commit to him, which they did in great numbers. The support element should have been in his rear, launching their own assault within minutes of Reno's assault. How long do you think it would have taken Custer to return to ford A and move to Reno's position? If it is more than 5 or 10 minutes it isn't going to help the situation. And Benteen, for all anyone knew, was still scouting to the left.
You state the support he was promised was arriving. From where was it arriving and who was that support? Please back your statement up instead of just writing a book on some obscure bit of information.
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Post by quincannon on Mar 22, 2015 16:13:30 GMT -6
Do you people realize you are trying to present rational arguments to a duck. A duck for God sake not a goose or the road runner. Your talking to a quacker.
It used to be an upside down squirrel.
The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. There is not going to be a different result folks. It's a duck.
I might add that it is not a mean or malicious duck.
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Post by dave on Mar 22, 2015 16:29:38 GMT -6
QC I guess it is just like dealing with my wife, when I believe that if I try one more time she will see the logic in my point. Hard not to swat at those no see'em bugs, ye know. Regards Dave
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Post by herosrest on Mar 22, 2015 16:38:15 GMT -6
It's interesting that people can rationalise Reno's withdrawl, as Benteen approached. It might be fair to give that popular press, or a faction of it since this was a political argument of wide proportion. and also broader media, did a number on Reno. It was deserved. A balanced opinion is attached. Reno let the side down and blamed everyone else. Simple human nature and he is now being ascribed virtues which are unrealistic.
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Post by tubman13 on Mar 22, 2015 16:41:13 GMT -6
It is stated fact that he was consuming alchohol. Therefore...... let me see, now........ he was drunk. He may have perfectly well been able to conduct himself but it is fact that he was extremely rash under it's influence. For example, striking fellow officers. Knife fighting with scouts. Applying for Custer's job - jolly bad taste. Blaming defeat on Custer's tactics and blaming Gibbon for Sitting Bull getting away from Little Bighorn. Arguing with Gibbon. Advising Sheridan that Terry did not have clue how to conduct a campaign. Assaulting civilians. Upsetting Mrs. Custer. It was Reno's fault and he was never going to accept that.... he never did. Benteen was at Ford A. Two miles away? It's the other side of an enduring set of opinions. He should have waited, although the loss of his drinking buddy, shot in the head in front of him, un-nerved the guy. I would have been gone like a frog up a pump, out of there but I was not in command of a battalion of troops opening offensive operations in support of a major action. A major action.......... get it. Probably not. Be well, I strongly disagree your opinion about Reno and am not a Custer fan. Fine read here - written by her highness - archive.org/stream/generalcusteratb00cust#page/n3/mode/2up HR, You are coming unglued here. When did he strike a fellow officer, before or after the skirmish line! Did he apply for Custer's job on Reno Hill or after ? Where did he blame Gibbon for allowing S.B. getting on Gibbon, while in the timber? How did he upset Libbie, while conducting this battle? How did Reno know where Benteen was? His drinking buddy was an Indian Scout? You are becoming comedy relief, I think I will have a drink, I generally do while at the Comedy Club!
Regards, Tom
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Post by tubman13 on Mar 22, 2015 16:43:56 GMT -6
It was said previously, in excuse I guess, 'He (Reno) saw, or was informed, that Custer was across the river up on the bluffs. Custer was of no help to Reno and he knew it.' Well taking this to be that Reno knew Custer was of no to him (Reno), this is completely wrong thinking. Reno was where he was with a job to do. Support he was promised was arriving. Reno did not do his job, because he most certainly could have remained in place until Benteen arrived. Another three companies halved the odds and there were as nearly many men to arrive again with packs and rear-guard which is a very different fight to three companies on 800-1000. Taking the other tack, all Custer had to do was attack. Cross the river and attack and he did not. Unfortunately for Reno, Custer cannot explain why he did not do that, and neither can anyone with him, except Curley - to whom no-one listens. Reno carries the can because he retreated from the fight without orders. Afterwards in perfectly normal human behaviour, done in spades, he CYA and got away with it. We still today do not know why Custer did not attack but he may have delayed awaiting Benteen's arrival. That is perfect military logic and quite sensible. You see, Reno didn't have a problem until a half his fighting strength disappeared into the timber andf were stood in rank beside their horses. Those in the timber were not short of ammunition, stood beside their saddle-bags. As the few men actually still fighting began falling bak, they were attacked - having invited, exactly what happened. This sounds a bit like over the hills and through the woods to Grandmommy's house.
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Post by herosrest on Mar 22, 2015 16:44:42 GMT -6
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Post by tubman13 on Mar 22, 2015 16:48:39 GMT -6
Do you people realize you are trying to present rational arguments to a duck. A duck for God sake not a goose or the road runner. Your talking to a quacker. It used to be an upside down squirrel. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. There is not going to be a different result folks. It's a duck. I might add that it is not a mean or malicious duck. Most of the Quackers I know live in PA and make good furniture, oh wait that's Quakers, sorry. He mentions Whitaker so much I thought he was an aspiring novelist!
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Post by tubman13 on Mar 22, 2015 16:50:09 GMT -6
You keep that up I'm getting the retriever and the 12 gauge!
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Post by tubman13 on Mar 22, 2015 16:50:58 GMT -6
You keep that up I'm getting the retriever and the 12 gauge!
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Post by tubman13 on Mar 22, 2015 16:52:06 GMT -6
So that is why Custer wanted the paks quick, Keogh was having the DT's
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Post by herosrest on Mar 22, 2015 17:07:13 GMT -6
It could have been. There were some heavy drinkers out there, no real thinking against it then, although it did change very quickly and almost immediately. I think it was by '77, that drinking during campaign was actively being frowned upon. It was a different world and West Point was producing an improved model.
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