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Post by quincannon on May 11, 2012 11:17:53 GMT -6
Fred: Any woman who aspires to be a gun bunny in a 155 battery, or the loader in an M-1, or any other job should get that job if they are qualified. By qualification I mean that they can meet the established standard for occupying that position and not a modified male, or exclusive female standard. There can only be one standard - period. Now if a female can meet that standard then she should be eligible for the job.
Some of the most accomplished snipers in the Soviet Army in WWII were women. I don't think any one much cared about their menstrual cycle, and of course the enemy soldiers they killed were beyond care.
Equality under the law means that the opportunity is there if the person is qualified - period. You cannot be almost equal.
Seventy one year olds in MLB? There was a time when Jackie Robinson could not play MLB either, and he sure as hell was not 71. It is not age discrimination for a 71 year old not to play in MLB. You do not meet the standard.
MOS: Just which MOS currently open to women in the military do you object to? Specifically the MOS, and where can you point, in saying that the standards of the MOS have been compromized to allow the inclusion of women? Be very sure before you answer.
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Post by Dark Cloud on May 11, 2012 11:26:49 GMT -6
I'm curious how it is the Israelis and others seem to benefit from women in combat and we do not.
And the question is this: would Fred object to A woman who has demonstrated ability for the job being allowed to do it? There ARE women who can bench press Abrams tanks and who could probably change the tire of giant earth moving vehicles while chatting on the phone. Carrying a 200 pound man wouldn't even be much for half the young women of Boulder, although admittedly they're way above the fitness norm.
Nowhere near as many as men, but that's not the question.
How is it there are no reports of women having their period causing those in the foxhole to pass out or vectoring pheromone detectors and connected artillery on to that position? In my life, I don't recall noticing anything like odor from periods absent close contact. And, really, in a platoon of sweaty soldiers in a jungle or desert it's the soldier bleeding a tad that's the dangerous give away?
But Fred is right, they can either do it or not. Fred is wrong, though, if he discounts some who can just because they're women, if that is his stance.
Really, we probably lost lives because the Army fired all those Arabic translators who were gay at the BEGINNING of the recent wars. Those were people confronted with Arabic-Muslim nations killing gay boys and girls on You Tube for entertainment with government approval. Being coldly objective, how focused would those people be on winning wars against such? But, they're gay. Fire them.
The contractors are a huge danger, far more than the soldier next to you in the foxhole planning her wedding when her tour is up and annoyed she's out of Tampax.
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Post by benteen on May 11, 2012 11:36:49 GMT -6
[quote author=quincannon board=basics thread=4165 post=79525 time=1336748176 Actually, I just read an article that another chaplain-- WWII ? Korea ??-- is up for the CMH now. . Capt Fred, Father Vincent Capodanno a Navy Chaplain assigned to the Marine Corps was killed in 1967 in Viet Nam and posthumously awarded the MOH. Be Well Dan
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Post by quincannon on May 11, 2012 11:48:59 GMT -6
Dan there were two others awarded the MOH for Vietnam. My post should have said O'Callahan was the first, not the only, and I appended that notation to the original post.
The one Fred refers to is still in consideration for the MOH and also in the initial steps for sainthood in the Catholic Church. Now an MOH and sainthood would be a rare combination.. Personally after reading up on Captain Kapuan I believe he deserves both.
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Post by benteen on May 11, 2012 12:16:03 GMT -6
[quote author=darkcloud board=basics thread=4165 post=79537 time=1336757209 And the question is this: would Fred object to A woman who has demonstrated ability for the job being allowed to do it? There ARE women who can bench press Abrams tanks and who could probably change the tire of giant earth moving vehicles while chatting on the phone. Carrying a 200 pound man wouldn't even be much for half the young women of Boulder, although admittedly they're way above the fitness norm.
[/quote]
Dark Cloud,
I would agree with that but that isnt where the problem lies. The military is run by politicians. If one of these people feel it would help their re-election (Which is all any of them care about) to be more benevolent (PC) towards women, you will see women being promoted from Lt to Capt simply because they are the best qualified woman, not the best qualified officer. This will be done beacause some politician or political party says to do it. The military is no place to practice political correctness. It can cost too many lives if incompatant people are put in positions of command that they are not suited for.
Be Well Dan
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Post by fred on May 11, 2012 12:29:50 GMT -6
Any woman who aspires to be a gun bunny in a 155 battery, or the loader in an M-1, or any other job should get that job if they are qualified. By qualification I mean that they can meet the established standard for occupying that position and not a modified male, or exclusive female standard. Queenie, actually, you are proving my point. Because of the way this country is, those standards will never be set properly... there will always be litigation attempting to modify or lower standards. I do not know about other areas of the country, but I do know in NY, the physical standards for jobs as cops and fireman have been lowered substantially so women could join the ranks. I have a friend who is a cop who just shakes his head when we discuss this topic and he tells me what the police force does when a particular incident arises and women cops are on the job. Well, the army is no different and I have a bunch of friends-- young guys-- just out of the army, Iraq vets, who feel the same way. And where and when do you apply the standards? Do you think for one second when the heat is on to enlist more people for the infantry that some congressman or some general under the heat isn't going to lobby to get women in? What do they care? They have just gained votes and NOW's gratitude. A job awaits when you retire, General!! Nothing in this country is ever done for the good of the whole; it always seems some particular interest groups get what they want. So? I have no issue with that at all. Stick a pot on her head and turn her loose. Same as a Finance Corps officer. I don't know of many snipers riding an M-1 or following behind me in a combat or recon patrol. As far as I am concerned, that's a one-on-one compete. By the way, in the Olympics, do we have women competing against men in any events to do with firing a weapon? Also, as an aside, have you ever wondered why women do not compete with men in billiards and pool? I scratch my head over that one.... You are blowing smoke, Queenie. No issue! Stick to the facts. It is in the standards. Don't make me a monster... no issue. My contention here is we will never have standards set at previous levels because some clique or interest group or "equal rights" group cannot get their constituents into a particular organization. Jackie Robinson has nothing to do with it... there are no 70-year-olds in baseball. That is discrimination. If I fail to meet the standards, then lower them. Why not? The police have... the firemen have... the military has.... Lower the standards so I can compete. Then, if another 70-year old beats me out, OK. And you know why they don't? Money... pure and simple. No one wants to watch a 70-year old geezer wheezing his way across centerfield when they can see Curtis Granderson or Brett Gardner run like the wind. But nobody gives a rat's ass about the military; it is politics, pure and simple. If a woman dies in combat, who cares? If a man dies, who cares? But if David Robertson blows a save, every Yankee fan within shouting distance is up in arms. If I couldn't chase down a fly ball, every Yankee fan would be calling for my head. As for MOS', I am no longer up on specifics, so I wouldn't dare challenge you in those specifics. I am only conversant with what I am familiar with: infantry, TC, and signal. And two of them in combat, neither of which I would have ever considered taking a woman with me. Also, I am no longer familiar with training standards and how they differ from what I went through. I will tell you this... when I went through airborne school the course was four weeks long, with the first week being physical training. If memory serves me correctly, most of the class losses were during that week, including three of five marines in the school. I would have paid anything to see any female keep up with me during that week... and I wasn't up to peak. By the end of the first hour, one of the DI's came up to me and told me he wanted to keep the cadence of the class based on how I was doing things. A huge compliment in my opinion. And I was not in the best of shape... though I was certainly by the time those guys finished! And Ranger school...? Gimme a break! Or do we lower those standards so we can have these Amazonian women walking around with Ranger tabs...? Again, I would love to see a combat patrol made up of nothing but 50 women. What kind of fear would that instill in an enemy? Here is another issue.... Let's regress back into bromides and metaphors... a chain is only as strong as its weakest link. Some how I cannot picture a woman infantry"man" at Ia Drang. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by quincannon on May 11, 2012 12:48:38 GMT -6
Fred: If you will stipulate that a combat medic, as defined by someone who is attached to an infantry platoon, or company in battle, is to be chosen by the same physical standards as the combat infantryman, then I wll place the following before you for consideration.
My last visit to Evans Hospital was before Christmas, to pick up some medicines. I went up to the hospital Semi-Starbucks coffee concession, and it happened that the two persons immediately in front of me were Sergeants of the female persuasion. They were in Blues so I suppose they were there to have an official photo taken or to appear before a promotion board. In any event it is odd to see anyone in the blue service uniform in the hospital so I took particular notice. One was wearing the insignia of the 8th Infantry, the other that of the 12th Infantry. One was wearing the Bonze with V, The Purple Heart, and the Combat Medic Badge. The other was wearing The Army Commendation Medal with 2OCL, The Purple Heart, and the Combat Medic Badge. I rest my case.
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Post by fred on May 11, 2012 12:59:44 GMT -6
I'm curious how it is the Israelis and others seem to benefit from women in combat and we do not. Combat in Israel has been much closer, geographically, than in most other places, and their women's roles are different. You do not see Israeli women moving with their infantry or commanding their tanks. "Combat" there is relative. Someone correct me if I am wrong here. Plus, there is also an issue of numbers. I had a good friend who was a woman in the Israeli army; she told me they keep pretty tight rein on those gals, trying to fit them in wherever they can to replace men in jobs they are suitable for, just so the men can assume the roles within their infantry, artillery, and tank units. No... Fred would not. But again, that is not the issue and my point is being missed. If you create the opportunity for one, it opens the doors for all. The military does not have that luxury. It is a luxury jammed down throats by those that do not have the best interests of the military in mind. Provide me with a "person"-- a woman... well, let's use the term, "female"-- who can demonstrate the identical ability as the weakest candidate in an all-male patrol (let's say), and I would accept her as part of the unit. Yeah... but it can become the question, and that's an issue. Because we've never had the occasion for that to happen. Never yet seen a woman in a foxhole. I'll give you that point, though the blood smell is different. That is not my stance, at all. I go back to what I said above. I will also qualify my comments with the caveat that I am constrained to only my own experience. In my day, everyone's secondary MOS was infantry, whether in theory or in practice. If need be, every cook grabbed his rifle and fired and maneuvered with the 11B next to him. As best I can remember, my MOS was 71542-- airborne infantry small unit commander, or something like that (though it may have changed after ranger school, I don't recall). If the chips were down and we all grabbed the M-16, I would take a male finance corps officer, any day, over a female truck driver. The military equalizes people... that's what a team is... a chain. It is only as strong.... If we generalize that team, assuming all parts are equal-- and they are not-- then we weaken it. DC, I agree... though I will tell you, it wasn't that long ago when I wouldn't. And in that case, I was wrong. I am not wrong on this issue, however. To me it is a matter of standards, and I want to raise them rather than lower them. On an individual basis, I would accept your and Queenie's arguments, but this country isn't set up that way. "Individuality" equals discrimination and the courts would become involved, wrecking the whole pile of cards. I agree here, too. To be honest, I would rather have an American gal in olive camouflage next to me in a foxhole, than some guy recently out of a mud-floored tent with no dog in the fight... and probably being paid more than me. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by wild on May 11, 2012 13:13:07 GMT -6
I think Fred ticked all the boxes on women in combat units except for one -- attraction.It is divisive and the last thing you need in the mix is emotional baggage. Am I wrong but did not a lovers tiff result in a 15 inch battleship turret being sabotaged resulting in the deaths of dozens of gunners.
Colonel, I just cannot see the Grenadier,Irish,Welch and Scots guards plus the Blues and Royals ever being disbanded.
It is unfortunate, too, because DC did nothing more than try to make them prove their points and I think they took much of what he had to say the wrong way. A newbie recently paid a visit to this parish.His or maybe it was her first post was greeted by a snort of boorish derision. Fortunately an old combat vet happened by and gently picked the newbie up dusted him/her down and with great patience took her/him through the post explaining and informing and just being decent. Lest anyone think the old combat vet was DC no it was not. Best Wishes
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Post by quincannon on May 11, 2012 13:14:32 GMT -6
Fred: Then there is Spc Monica Lin Brown 4th Squadron, 73rd Cavalry, 82nd Airborne Division awarded the Silver Star for the usual reasons. She is a combat medic.
The there is SGT Leigh Ann Hester, 617th Military Police Company KYARNG, who led a fire team in cleaning out a trench line, and as a result was the first female awarded the Silver Star since WWII. Another woman was decorated for the same action Spc Ashley Puller, and similar circumstance
It ain't your Army or my Army anymore Fred. We sit on the sidelines and remember the good old days. Meanwhile there are women serving in combat this very day doing things as well or better than we could have ever done, and the only thing I can say to them is Go For It Sis.
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Post by quincannon on May 11, 2012 13:19:41 GMT -6
Wild: It was a 16 inch gun battleship, the Iowa, and you are dead wrong. It was bad powder, old bad powder, and had nothing to do with anything like you suggest. The shame of it was that a good sailor was trashed because of unfounded accusations and rumor. He has subsequently been cleared although it took a very long time.
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Post by wild on May 11, 2012 13:23:36 GMT -6
Colonel was it first suggested that it was a lovers tiff or am I thinking of another incident entirely?
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Post by fred on May 11, 2012 13:25:44 GMT -6
One was wearing the Bonze with V, The Purple Heart, and the Combat Medic Badge. The other was wearing The Army Commendation Medal with 2OCL, The Purple Heart, and the Combat Medic Badge. I rest my case. C'mon, Chuck, that's great, but what does it prove? If a hospital gets shelled and a tent pole falls on you, scratching your head, you get a Purple Heart. The Combat Medic Badge means you were there. To get the Combat Infantryman's Badge you needed to be in a TO&E infantry outfit, in a combat zone, for 30 days. And if you were the battalion S-1, you got it, even if you didn't pick up a rifle. Or if you were there for 15 minutes and got killed in a mortar attack, you got it. So none of that impresses me as something other than "being there." I got an ACM for "being there," for doing a bang-up job... supposedly. My OER said so. To my way of thinking it was simply "for being there." I am always impressed with a Bronze Star, regardless of the caveats attached, but I also know how many of them were given out, and again, the circumstances involved. I have said before, women are easily as brave as men. No big deal. And before anyone gets too enthralled by all of that, remember Jessica Lynch and Pat Tillmon. Both cases denigrate the awards, and that, to me, is wrong. I know what I did to get two BSs and I know of something else I did that was worthy of a lot more, and because I didn't open my mouth, got nothing. It was my job and I had men down. Because of what I did, I lost no one else. I have the memory and that's all that matters... plus because of what I did, there are guys walking around today that may have wound up staying there. So again, it's all in the telling. I even know of abused Silver Stars. It is all in the circumstances and the proximity. No one is arguing a woman's bravery. That is not the issue... so to me it is far from "case closed." I saw plenty of men who wouldn't take a chance for anyone or anything. They could still do the job I needed. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by quincannon on May 11, 2012 13:33:13 GMT -6
Wild: You are correct, that is exactly what was alleged. I happen to have personal knowledge of this case. My dad built 16 inch guns at the Naval Gun Factory, Washington DC Navy Yard. He was one of the last of his breed alive at the time, and wrote the Secretary of The Navy, shortly after this happened, explaining why, in his opinion that what was reported on TV as to the cause of the explosion was impossible. I typed the letter, as his eyesight was failing. He received a reply back, with a list of questions attached, to which he answered. As it turned out his conclusions were not far off the mark, and the sailor that had been throughly trashed was cleared of all wrongdoing. It was an equipment malfunction, along with powder bags dating from the Korean War that caused the problem. A similar explosion happend aboard USS Newport News, with similar results. So no it was not a lovers quarel or anything approaching mis-conduct in either instance. It was a case of military equipment still being in service long past their sell by date.
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Post by fred on May 11, 2012 13:36:30 GMT -6
... there are women serving in combat this very day doing things as well or better than we could have ever done... Not a chance. Not from my perspective anyway. Of course, I can only speak for myself, but at 71 and counting (hopefully!), I have never to this day met any female who could have done what I did in the army. And if that is smug and arrogant and nasty and Chauvinistic, then so be it. To me it is the truth; and sometimes the truth isn't very acceptable. Best wishes, Fred.
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