|
Post by steve1956 on May 6, 2012 7:54:00 GMT -6
Bigger is not better Steve. Better is better, Precisely.........
|
|
|
Post by fred on May 9, 2012 20:28:03 GMT -6
The authorized strength of the Seventh Cavalry Regiment in 1876 was 43 officers and 845 enlisted personnel; 888 men, total.
The 12 companies were authorized 3 officers and 70 enlisted men each. The HQ staff was to consist of 7 officers and 5 EM. No band was authorized.
The regimental breakdown was as follows:
1 colonel 1 lieutenant colonel 3 majors 12 captains 1 adjutant (lieutenant) 1 QM (lieutenant) 12 first lieutenants 12 second lieutenants 1 sergeant major 1 QM sergeant 1 saddler sergeant 1 chief trumpeter 1 chief musician 12 first sergeants 60 sergeants (5 per company) 48 corporals (4 per company) 24 trumpeters (2 per company) 24 farriers/blacksmiths (2 per company) 12 saddlers 12 wagoners 648 privates (54 per company)
When the Seventh Cavalry left Fort Lincoln on May 17, 1876, this was the breakdown by unit; this was not the assigned strength, just the strength leaving the fort:
HQ—7 officers, 4 EM (this included contract surgeons, not included in the TO&E above; and the chief musician, counted as an officer) Company A—3 officers, 51 enlisted men B—2 officers, 63 EM C—2 officers, 60 EM D—2 officers, 61 EM E—2 officers, 53 EM F—2 officers, 57 EM G—2 officers, 59 EM H—2 officers, 47 EM I—2 officers, 51 EM K—2 officers, 62 EM L—2 officers, 63 EM M—2 officers, 61 EM
There was also a band attached—14 enlisted men.
Total, counting the band: 32 officers, 706 EM.
The following personnel remained at PRD:
HQ—1 officer, 2 EM A—4 EM B—19 EM C—8 EM D—11 EM E—3 EM F—8 EM G—16 EM H—2 EM I—4 EM K— 21 EM L—6 EM M—6 EM Band—14 EM
In addition, the following were carried as sick, AWOL, or detached for duty:
C—2 EM E—1 EM F—1 EM I—1 EM M—1 EM
That totals, 1 officer, 130 EM.
None of this includes scouts or QM personnel.
Battle strength at the LBH was as follows: (this includes inter-company attachments and detachments, as well as stragglers)
HQ—3 officers, 5 enlisted personnel A—2 officers, 39 EM B—1 officer, 43 EM C—2 officers, 36 EM (Tom Custer is counted here, not in HQ) D—2 officers, 43 EM E—2 officers, 36 EM F—2 officers, 36 EM G—2 officers, 35 EM (Wallace is counted here) H—2 officers, 38 EM (Martini is counted here) I—2 officers, 36 EM K—1 officer, 31 EM L—2 officers, 44 EM M—1 officer, 46 EM Reno's HQ—6 officers, 7 EM
Attached to the pack train, either as part of the 7 – man contingent, or as strikers, horse-watchers, orderlies, cooks, etc.:
A—7 EM C—8 EM D—7 EM E—9 EM F—10 EM G—7 EM H—7 EM I—9 EM K—6 EM L—13 EM M—1 officer, 8 EM
Battalion totals: (after all assignments, but before messengers and stragglers; it also does not count scouts, civilians, etc. It does count the two contract surgeons, DeWolf and Porter)
Custer/Keogh/Yates—13 officers, 204 EM Reno—11 officers, 127 EM Benteen—5 officers, 111 EM McDougall—2 officers, 134 EM
Total uniformed personnel at the battle: (counting the 2 contract surgeons) 31 officers, 576 EM.
Best wishes, Fred.
|
|
|
Post by Dark Cloud on May 9, 2012 21:00:53 GMT -6
Even with the surgeons, there is a disproportionate number of officers with Reno for so few men, only two less than Custer had and more than twice as many as Benteen with the about the same number. And a disproportionate number of officers around Custer himself.
|
|
|
Post by steve1956 on May 9, 2012 23:04:10 GMT -6
Even with the surgeons, there is a disproportionate number of officers with Reno for so few men, only two less than Custer had and more than twice as many as Benteen with the about the same number. And a disproportionate number of officers around Custer himself. Some books make a point of a lack of troop Officers....As far as I can see,the overall proportions of Officers are fine...But who are the odd 6 with Reno ? If one assumes there should be 3 Officers+ per 70 men,Reno is heavily overstaffed......
|
|
|
Post by Yan Taylor on May 10, 2012 2:43:40 GMT -6
Hi Steve, I don’t know if this is any help to you, I hope I have got it right though, Fred will tell me if I have made any mistakes (I hope), I complied it two years ago, so I am sorry if I have got it wrong.
Reno’s Battalion HQ: Co Major M Reno (U.S.A.) 1st Lieutenant C Varnum, Co of Scouts (U.S.A.) WIA 2nd Lieutenant L Hare, 2nd in Co of Scouts (U.S.A.) Acting assistant surgeon Dr J DeWolf (U.S.A.) KIA Trooper Clear (U.S.A.) (Lt Hare’s Orderly) transferred from K Coy KIA Trooper H Abbots (U.S.A.)(hospital attendant) transferred from E Coy Trooper F Brown (U.S.A.)(clerk to major Reno’s Bn) transferred from F Coy Trooper J Butler (U.S.A.)(hospital attendant) transferred from F Coy Trooper E Davern (Irish)(orderly with Capt Reno’s Bn) transferred from F Coy Trooper E Strode (U.S.A.)(Lt Varnum’s Orderly) transferred from A Coy WIA Trooper A McLlhargey (Irish) KIA (I Coy) transferred to Reno, sent as courier to Custer) Trooper J Mitchell (Irish) KIA (I Coy) transferred to Reno, sent as courier to Custer) I Dorman, Interpreter for the Dakotas (U.S.A.) KIA F Girard, Interpreter for the Ree’s (U.S.A.) F Herendeen (U.S.A.) Quarter master scout C Reynolds, Quarter master scout (U.S.A.) KIA B Jackson (U.S.A.) Quarter master scout
Company Officers: A Coy: Co Capt M Moylan (U.S.A.) 2nd in Co 1st Lieutenant C Derudio (Austrian)
G Coy: Co 1st Lieutenant D McIntosh (Canadian) KIA 2nd in Co 2nd Lieutenant G Wallace (U.S.A.)
M Coy: Co Captain T French (U.S.A.)
Detached: 2nd in Co 1st Lieutenant E Mathey M Coy (French) IN CHARGE OF PACK TRAIN.
Ian.
|
|
|
Post by ulan on May 10, 2012 4:02:58 GMT -6
Hi Steve, I don’t know if this is any help to you, I hope I have got it right though, Fred will tell me if I have made any mistakes (I hope), I complied it two years ago, so I am sorry if I have got it wrong. Reno’s Battalion HQ: Co Major M Reno (U.S.A.) 1st Lieutenant C Varnum, Co of Scouts (U.S.A.) WIA 2nd Lieutenant L Hare, 2nd in Co of Scouts (U.S.A.) Acting assistant surgeon Dr J DeWolf (U.S.A.) KIA Trooper Clear (U.S.A.) (Lt Hare’s Orderly) transferred from K Coy KIA Trooper H Abbots (U.S.A.)(hospital attendant) transferred from E Coy Trooper F Brown (U.S.A.)(clerk to major Reno’s Bn) transferred from F Coy Trooper J Butler (U.S.A.)(hospital attendant) transferred from F Coy Trooper E Davern (Irish)(orderly with Capt Reno’s Bn) transferred from F Coy Trooper E Strode (U.S.A.)(Lt Varnum’s Orderly) transferred from A Coy WIA Trooper A McLlhargey (Irish) KIA (I Coy) transferred to Reno, sent as courier to Custer) Trooper J Mitchell (Irish) KIA (I Coy) transferred to Reno, sent as courier to Custer) I Dorman, Interpreter for the Dakotas (U.S.A.) KIA F Girard, Interpreter for the Ree’s (U.S.A.) F Herendeen (U.S.A.) Quarter master scout C Reynolds, Quarter master scout (U.S.A.) KIA B Jackson (U.S.A.) Quarter master scout Company Officers: A Coy: Co Capt M Moylan (U.S.A.) 2nd in Co 1st Lieutenant C Derudio (Austrian) G Coy: Co 1st Lieutenant D McIntosh (Canadian) KIA 2nd in Co 2nd Lieutenant G Wallace (U.S.A.) M Coy: Co Captain T French (U.S.A.) Detached: 2nd in Co 1st Lieutenant E Mathey M Coy (French) IN CHARGE OF PACK TRAIN. Ian. Wasn´t Quartermaster Bloody Knife with Reno, or is he on a other name in your list? Why btw did Custer send Bloody Knife with Reno?
|
|
|
Post by Yan Taylor on May 10, 2012 4:09:38 GMT -6
Hi Ulan, I left out the Indian scouts to simplify matters, I don’t know why Custer sent Bloody knife with Reno, I think that Custer did value Bloody Knife highly. Ian.
|
|
|
Post by ulan on May 10, 2012 5:07:55 GMT -6
Ah ok, thanks. I thought Bloody Knife was on a official rank in the 7th but was not counted just as a scout.
May Custer respects Reno more then we know and he gave him his friend aside.
|
|
|
Post by fred on May 10, 2012 6:01:46 GMT -6
Bloody Knife was on the payroll as a QM employee. In my work, unless I refer specifically to QM employees, I count him with the Rees.
Custer never expected his Indian scouts to fight with him. At the LBH he told the scouts he wanted them to police up Sioux ponies, so they were all sent with Reno because that is where the herds were. Custer wanted to keep only the six Crow scouts, but there was a misunderstanding at the separation near the lone tepee and Half Yellow Face and White Swan wound up with Reno.
As for the disproportionate number of officers with Reno, don't forget, as a major and a staff officer Reno was entitled to an adjutant, so Hodgson rode with him (that's "one"; Hodgson was a B Company officer). In addition, both the officers assigned to the "scouts"-- Varnum (A Company) and Hare (K Company)-- rode with Reno (that's "three"). Then when you add two contract surgeons, his "officer" numbers appear inflated-- "five." (And by the way, I always count the contract surgeons amongst the officers).
So in reality, the only company in the entire command with its full complement of officers-- and with the correct ranks as well-- was A Company.
L Company was really the "odd-man-out." If you look at its roster, "L" had zero officers actually assigned. Calhoun was the "first" lieutenant (literally) of C Company, and Crittenden was assigned from the 20th Infantry. "L's" assigned officers were CPT Michael Vincent Sheridan, the younger brother of LTG Phil Sheridan, who was on detached service as ADC to his brother since 18Feb71. Then you had 1LT Charles “Old Gothic” Braden, who had been on sick leave since 5Oct75. Braden took part in the Yellowstone Expedition and was wounded in the thigh (the left thighbone was shattered) during the 11Aug73 battle near Pompey’s Pillar. He was hospitalized from that time until Oct73. He applied for leave, then did some recruiting duty before requesting disability retirement, 28Jun78. He became a professor at the USMA and was later brevetted and awarded the DSC for his actions on the Yellowstone: with twenty men he repulsed more than 200 Indians even while wounded. (The DSC-business is odd; I'll have to check when that medal was first authorized...!)
The third L Company officer was 2LT Edwin Philip Eckerson. This guy had an interesting time of it. He fought against the Apaches near Mazatlan Mountain in 1873, earning a brevet promotion to 1LT. He was then assigned to QM as acting paymaster, but was charged with “conduct unbecoming an officer”—regimental funds seemed to be missing—and was court – martialed and dismissed from the service. He appealed and was reinstated, being appointed to Company L, vice LT Braden (promoted), 2May76, but had not yet joined unit, being “temporarily” replaced by Crittenden.
Eckerson was with Godfrey at Cedar Creek, M. T., in the spring of 1877 when they chased Indians who had robbed the U. S. mail. Apparently, Godfrey failed to pursue them and Benteen claimed Eckerson said Godfrey was a coward. He then fought the Nez Percé at Snake Creek, 30Sep77, where he took command of three companies after all the officers were killed or wounded. He was commended for conspicuous duty. At the height of the battle he told Gen. Miles, “I am the only damned man of the Seventh Cavalry wearing shoulder straps who’s alive!” Eckerson's problem was that he could not handle his booze-- sound familiar?-- and was court – martialed again and dismissed from service, 30Jun78, for conduct unbecoming an officer. Supposedly he was a true gentleman and scholar and Benteen seemed to like him a lot, though he felt Eckerson was rather vain and not an honest man. “If it will benefit any in t’other sphere, my testimony for him will go to the effect that he’d more grit than his captain” (who was, at the time, Myles Moylan!!!)
Best wishes, Fred.
|
|
|
Post by steve1956 on May 10, 2012 6:27:53 GMT -6
Now it makes sense.....*I was reading "scouts not included" from earlier post as "scout officers not included".........
Steve...who is getting there....slowly......
|
|
|
Post by fred on May 10, 2012 8:30:38 GMT -6
I just checked... Braden was awarded the Distinguished Service Cross, but it was back-dated. The award was established in 1917 when the military reviewed its MOH awardings and established its so-called "Pyramid of Honer." It was officially established in January, 1918. Braden was one of only 7 men awarded the medal for the Indian Wars, and he was alive when it was handed out. He died in January, 1919.
Cool stuff!
Best wishes, Fred.
|
|
|
Post by Yan Taylor on May 10, 2012 9:20:29 GMT -6
Hi Fred, just amended a few things, is this closer?
Co. Maj. Reno (Staff) Adj. 2nd Lt. Hodgson (B Coy) 1st Lt. Varnum (A Coy) 2nd Lt. Hare (K Coy) Acting Assistant Surgeon Dr DeWolf Trooper Clear (Lt Hare’s Orderly) transferred from K Coy Trooper Strode (Lt Varnum’s Orderly) transferred from A Coy Trooper Abbots (hospital attendant) transferred from E Coy Trooper Brown (clerk to major Reno’s Bn) transferred from F Coy Trooper Butler (hospital attendant) transferred from F Coy Trooper Davern (orderly with Capt Reno’s Bn) transferred from F Coy Trooper McLlhargey (I Coy) transferred to Reno, sent as courier to Custer) Trooper Mitchell (I Coy) transferred to Reno, sent as courier to Custer) I Dorman (Interpreter for the Dakotas ) F Girard (Interpreter for the Ree’s) F Herendeen (Quarter master scout) C Reynolds (Quarter master scout) B Jackson (Quarter master scout) Bloody Knife (Quarter master scout)
I don’t know which Troopers were either, Guidon Bearers or Trumpeters.
Thanks. Ian.
|
|
|
Post by Dark Cloud on May 10, 2012 9:36:53 GMT -6
Correct me if I'm wrong here.
Every officer except Reno and Custer had a company assignment. Some were exchanged, some were assigned elsewhere like to scouts. Fine. But there is a battle approaching and officers like Varnum and others who said they had no actual duty or assignment. That strikes me as bad organization and bad foresight. It's not like the 7th was drenched with NCO's, either.
Now, 'headquarters'........
I understand with a full regiment acting in accord with other similar units back then that commanders needed quick advice from trained officers atop their runners and gofers and trumpeters. Got it.
But in the undermanned 7th where veteran experience was not brimming over, for Custer or Reno to need multiple officers about when some companies had one (1) as they were about to attack an enemy that greatly outnumbered them strikes me as weird, atop irresponsible. Whether TWC was part of 'headquarters' isn't the issue as why ANY officer would be better placed there atop Custer and his adjutant and communication riders.
Also, unless the surgeons could order sergeants about, were they really officers? Pay grade, maybe, but in the flesh a guy with maybe zero military experience can order trained, experienced NCO's about?
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on May 10, 2012 9:57:00 GMT -6
DC: You are not wrong.
The 7th Cavalry as well as the rest were being employed as if they were a full strength regiment. Under those conditions of full strength there would be a requirement for three officers per company. If you wish to apply modern standards of leader to led, it probably should have been five officers, assuming you wish to use the factor of three in organization, which in modern useage is pretty standard.
Now, when a unit is badly understrength as was the 7th Cavalry, some consolidation should have taken place into a tighter more compact organization in my view.
|
|
|
Post by fred on May 10, 2012 10:33:41 GMT -6
Every officer except Reno and Custer had a company assignment. You forgot Cooke. Hodgson was pulled from "B" to act as Reno's adjutant. Varnum, after Reno ordered his men to dismount in the valley, reported to his chief, Moylan. Hare had no assignment, as his company-- "K"-- was with Benteen. Notice that when they were on the hilltop and Hare needed a horse to go after the ammo mules, he took Godfrey's, his CO's. It was only after he returned that Reno chose him as his adjutant. As far as I know, Varnum remained with Moyland and "A." Don't really disagree, especially with Custer and his brother. To me, it is just nepotism at work... that, and a bit of arrogance that Tom wouldn't really be needed to swat away the flies they would be facing. With Reno, he just needed an adjutant to relay orders. "Turkey shoot" comes to mind. My, my... weren't they surprised?! Lord was actually a first lieutenant in the army, while Porter and DeWolf were civilian contractors. Lord was entitled to all the respect and benefits of an officer, but carried no command authority... at least that's they way it was when I was in. In other words, if a first lieutenant in the cavalry were the highest ranking officer-- barring a doctor or a chaplain-- that first lieutenant would be in charge, not a captain surgeon, and the captain would have to defer to the looie in matters of command and the like. The contract surgeons bore no military responsibility at all, and would be subject to the orders of a corporal if need be. They would, however, enjoy officer privileges. Best wishes, Fred.
|
|