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Post by El Crab on Nov 6, 2011 22:37:20 GMT -6
Curley might've told the truth at one point, but at what point and which account is the truth? Based on how many contradictions and changes riddle his various tales, disregarding it all is easier than trying to pick and choose what to believe.
Gray did his best to find the truth, but there's just too much to wade through, and for what? You'd never truly know if you had lies or the strand of truth.
Besides, Curley wasn't there until the end, nor was he anywhere within shouting distance of the battle if he even was around at all. All he could've spoken of was Company I in the Keogh sector, which we have a pretty good idea of what went down there as it is.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Nov 7, 2011 6:53:30 GMT -6
Herosrest, why don’t you just type out your posts like everyone else dose, instead of making it look like a cheap magazine, I need sun glasses to read your work, just tone it down and type it out.
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jag
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Post by jag on Nov 7, 2011 9:26:51 GMT -6
Curley might've told the truth at one point, but at what point and which account is the truth? Based on how many contradictions and changes riddle his various tales, disregarding it all is easier than trying to pick and choose what to believe. Gray did his best to find the truth, but there's just too much to wade through, and for what? You'd never truly know if you had lies or the strand of truth. Besides, Curley wasn't there until the end, nor was he anywhere within shouting distance of the battle if he even was around at all. All he could've spoken of was Company I in the Keogh sector, which we have a pretty good idea of what went down there as it is. Curley might've told the truth at one point, but at what point and which account is the truth?Okay, I'll bite. When he told of all three parts of Custer's command [Reno, the Crows, and Custer's] in retreat at the same time. Sounds good to me and plausible.
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Post by fred on Nov 7, 2011 9:49:17 GMT -6
Curley might've told the truth at one point, but at what point and which account is the truth? Based on how many contradictions and changes riddle his various tales, disregarding it all is easier than trying to pick and choose what to believe. I agree with you to a point here, but "easier" isn't the goal or objective. "Truth" is. And while I believe you to be correct-- that there is truth in some of what Curley said-- for whatever reason, i. e., outside pressure, recognition of personal legacy, peer pressure, etc., his stories turned into fables. If you choose to believe Curley, you must choose to disregard too many others and that includes the white interviewers, some of whom were later-comers to the military. To accept Curley to the exclusion of other Crows and Rees-- participants-- is both unsound, from an academic point of view, and foolhardy. It also becomes that great bug-a-boo, fitting stories to flesh out theory rather than the other way around. Young Lochinvar here is only tailoring things to fit his own agenda. As for Gray and our "Hero," the time issue is another point. Let's forget Gray for the time being and concentrate on "Hero's" 3:15 PM. Here is where this genius hasn't done the work or even has a clue to what he is talking about. The "3:15" is obviously what we all would call "local sun time." The problem with that, however, is that the command wasn't using "local sun," though Gray used bloated rationalization to prove it was. Regardless, if the big shot had done his homework he would have traipsed to the USNO and discovered that the times I use are St. Paul time and differ from that "local sun" by approximately 57 minutes. That means if we add those 57 minutes to Lochinvar's 3:15, we have 4:12, not vastly different from my estimate of 4:40. I also make no bones about incorporating a 10- to 35-minute "fudge" factor to adjust for discrepancies in the various reportings. For example, the overwhelming majority of Indians claimed the first firing began when the sun was directly overhead. What time is that? Noon... or half-past? Either or both? Wallace said the command crossed the divide at noon. Noon, watch time because he claimed that was the last time he looked at his watch. And the whole command? All 655 men... all at once? In a flash? Hello! How about we account for speed and variable cueing and use a time maybe 10 minutes earlier as the beginning of the crossing.... How long would it take for all those men to begin moving... and where would the last guy be when Custer halted 1/4-mile below the divide crossing? So, all things considered, there needs to be some leeway granted here and the times I have posted in various sections of these boards account for all that. So now, if we take that into consideration and put that into the idiot's calculations, 3:15 turns into 4:12, and 4:12 could go from anywhere between 4:22 to 4:50. The bottom line is that "Herosbedrest," like so many other blowhards, simply hasn't done the work to be pontificating about anything regarding this battle. He offers no credible proof, no rational explanations... he only regurgitates the same garbage so many others have dribbled before. Best wishes, Fred.
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jag
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Post by jag on Nov 7, 2011 10:40:26 GMT -6
Fred,
I think you nailed it quite nicely about the timing. And certainly no disrespect intended here when I say... Trying to time this thing out to perfection is like trying to get close enough to a live rattlesnake to count every little ring on its coiled and rattling tail.
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Post by rosebud on Nov 7, 2011 10:44:21 GMT -6
For example, the overwhelming majority of Indians claimed the first firing began when the sun was directly overhead. What time is that? Noon... or half-past? Either or both?
Due to the fact that Indians had no need for a watch. This description could be from 10:00AM to 4:00PM. At this time of year the sun in high in the sky for a long long time. Why would they care? When did Indians ever eat at noon in those days? They ate in the morning and snacked on Pemmican and jerky if need be. Rosebud
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Post by herosrest on Nov 7, 2011 13:01:47 GMT -6
Those who cast dispersion upon tribal record, tend also to ignore Fred Benteen's account of the battle, published in 1876. His own words state that he rode to Long Otter Creek at the river, two miles to the left of Reno's command. This is corroborated by Terry and also by Varnum. That is historical fact - not the gumbo many are serving up now. Those who 'choose' not to believe the facts given by the participants before controversy began should upgrade to a calumet for that far more enchanting experience, stick this stuff files.myopera.com/herosrest/albums/8201592/CalumetBakingPowder%5B1%5D.jpg[/img] in it, puff away merrily, and go bake up some new cock eyed theories. How about the the amount of time it would take a cavalry mount to cover the distance from Pi, to the sky, at 4 mph, in reverse.
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jag
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Post by jag on Nov 7, 2011 14:19:44 GMT -6
Those who cast dispersion upon tribal record, tend also to ignore Fred Benteen's account of the battle, published in 1876. His own words state that he rode to Long Otter Creek at the river, two miles to the left of Reno's command. This is corroborated by Terry and also by Varnum. That is historical fact - not the gumbo many are serving up now. Those who 'choose' not to believe the facts given by the participants before controversy began should upgrade to a calumet for that far more enchanting experience, stick this stuff files.myopera.com/herosrest/albums/8201592/CalumetBakingPowder%5B1%5D.jpg[/img] in it, puff away merrily, and go bake up some new cock eyed theories. How about the the amount of time it would take a cavalry mount to cover the distance from Pi, to the sky, at 4 mph, in reverse. [/quote] ionosphere A region of the Earth's upper atmosphere, extending from a height of 70 km (43 mi) to 400 km (248 mi) and containing atoms that have been ionized by radiation from the Sun. Pi = the radius squared. The earths diameter is 7926.41 miles So the radius is 1/2 of the whole diameter of the earth plus the ionosphere. Making that total 7967.41 to 8174 miles in diameter. The radius in this case being 3983.705 miles to 4087 miles. So if we're to understand your question the mileage 4 mph was used. In this case it would take that horse 995.92625 hours to go 3983.705 miles and it would take that horse 1021.75 hours to go 4087 miles - that would be from the center of the earth to the outer layers of the ionosphere. If on the other hand you mean just from the earths surface to the outer layers of the ionoshpere it would take that horse 62 hours to traverse the 248 miles from the surface to it's outermost layers traveling at 4mph. ;D
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Post by "Hunk" Papa on Nov 7, 2011 16:45:27 GMT -6
1) Those who cast dispersion upon tribal record, tend also to ignore Fred Benteen's account of the battle, published in 1876. His own words state that he rode to Long Otter Creek at the river, two miles to the left of Reno's command. This is corroborated by Terry and also by Varnum. That is historical fact - not the gumbo many are serving up now. 2) in it, puff away merrily, and go bake up some new cock eyed theories. 1) The only 1876 account by Benteen was his 8th August statement to the NY Herald and in that he makes no mention of Long Otter Creek. neither does he use the wording that you have ascribed to him. What he actually wrote was: 'Having marched rapidly and passed the line of bluffs on the left bank of a branch of the Little Big Horn River, which made into the main stream about two miles and a half above the ford passed by Colonel Reno's command, as ordered, I continued my march in the same direction.'In other words he was describing the stream in the valley to the east of the South Fork of Reno Creek, which intersects with the Little Big Horn 2 and 1/2 miles upstream of Ford A. The confirmation is in the second highlighted phrase ' I continued my march in the same direction.'' because if he had been on Long Otter Creek he would have been heading for the LBH valley itself and we know that he got nowhere near there. How Varnum and Terry who were not with him could possibly corroborate anything he said is a mystery apparently only known to you. Neither of them tried to retrace his route or ever commented on it as far as I know, but hey, go ahead and surprise me. 2) Interesting suggestion but I had you pegged as the Sultan of Strabismus Speculations. Perhaps your brain has been intoxicated by taking shallow draughts at the Pierian spring. I suggest you drink more deeply to sober yourself, as a little learning...
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Post by herosrest on Nov 11, 2011 5:34:37 GMT -6
Good day Hunk papa, Varnum and Terry were not with him. What Terry states of Benteen was that when the action commenced he was two miles to the left. Pendantics can be brought into play. What was Terry saying in his report? There is no need to interpretate or run slide rules over the matter. When the action commenced is the term open to interpretation - Terry knew what he meant and so do I. Where did the action commence - I assume your opinion is that the action commenced when Benteen was two miles to the left of Reno. That puts him where? Easy one, this is. Two miles to the left of Reno. So, when did the action commence? This is the problem that pervades all study of the battle - people being entirely silly. Benteen rode to the river as ordered and returned to the main trail. There is no smoking gun as far as i'm concerned, Benteen was a sensible, slow poking, experienced battle commander, who sent a message to Custer and returned to the main trail. Arikara scout Stabbed rode along the ridge behind Custer. Why did he do that. Who was Four Horns mother? What was Deeds father's name? Varnum and Terry were not with him (Benteen). Perhaps had they been with him (Benteen), 7th Cavalry would have won the battle. ;D ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ___________________________________
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Post by herosrest on Nov 11, 2011 5:37:34 GMT -6
Those who cast dispersion upon tribal record, tend also to ignore Fred Benteen's account of the battle, published in 1876. His own words state that he rode to Long Otter Creek at the river, two miles to the left of Reno's command. This is corroborated by Terry and also by Varnum. That is historical fact - not the gumbo many are serving up now. Those who 'choose' not to believe the facts given by the participants before controversy began should upgrade to a calumet for that far more enchanting experience, stick this stuff files.myopera.com/herosrest/albums/8201592/CalumetBakingPowder%5B1%5D.jpg[/img] in it, puff away merrily, and go bake up some new cock eyed theories. How about the the amount of time it would take a cavalry mount to cover the distance from Pi, to the sky, at 4 mph, in reverse. [/quote] ionosphere A region of the Earth's upper atmosphere, extending from a height of 70 km (43 mi) to 400 km (248 mi) and containing atoms that have been ionized by radiation from the Sun. Pi = the radius squared. The earths diameter is 7926.41 miles So the radius is 1/2 of the whole diameter of the earth plus the ionosphere. Making that total 7967.41 to 8174 miles in diameter. The radius in this case being 3983.705 miles to 4087 miles. So if we're to understand your question the mileage 4 mph was used. In this case it would take that horse 995.92625 hours to go 3983.705 miles and it would take that horse 1021.75 hours to go 4087 miles - that would be from the center of the earth to the outer layers of the ionosphere. If on the other hand you mean just from the earths surface to the outer layers of the ionoshpere it would take that horse 62 hours to traverse the 248 miles from the surface to it's outermost layers traveling at 4mph. ;D[/quote] ;D Have you tried to ride in reverse on a horse. They don't like going backwards, (rather like G.A. Custer) and it is an act of entire trust through training, on the horses part.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Nov 11, 2011 15:13:40 GMT -6
Fred, I think you nailed it quite nicely about the timing. And certainly no disrespect intended here when I say... Trying to time this thing out to perfection is like trying to get close enough to a live rattlesnake to count every little ring on its coiled and rattling tail. What's hard about that? I can think of many methods to do that. Shoot the snake in the head and count them as slow as you like Hit it with a CO2 fire extinguisher and pick it up its a cold blooded animal Use a snakers tool and pick it up Use your binoculars from a safe distance Sounds like Fred's on the right track if its as easy as counting buttons on a rattlesnake. You just have to know what you are doing. AZ Ranger
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Post by AZ Ranger on Nov 11, 2011 15:43:37 GMT -6
Have you tried to ride in reverse on a horse. They don't like going backwards, (rather like G.A. Custer) and it is an act of entire trust through training, on the horses part.
I have and I am sure Rosebud has also. Apparently your knowledge of horses is on par with everything else you post. A horse can see to the rear (since they are a prey species it is handy to know it something is sneaking up behind you) and can move to the rear on their own without any training. Its not a matter of like or dislike. Its the structure of the animal. A horse can move quickly to the rear if they want to without a cue to do so. According to my GPS John moved at 7 mph backing up and I didn't ask him to do it.
AZ Ranger
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Post by "Hunk" Papa on Nov 13, 2011 12:40:29 GMT -6
Good day Hunk papa, Varnum and Terry were not with him. What Terry states of Benteen was that when the action commenced he was two miles to the left. Pendantics can be brought into play. What was Terry saying in his report? There is no need to interpretate or run slide rules over the matter. Varnum and Terry were not with him (Benteen). Perhaps had they been with him (Benteen), 7th Cavalry would have won the battle. ;D And salutations to you too. Regrettably, that is about as pleasant as it can get, because trying to debate sensibly with you is rather like trying to get a primary school pupil to understand the basics of the English language, even though I am assuming that your grammatical errors are meant in a jocular way.
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Post by herosrest on Nov 16, 2011 7:14:26 GMT -6
Have you tried to ride in reverse on a horse. They don't like going backwards, (rather like G.A. Custer) and it is an act of entire trust through training, on the horses part. I have and I am sure Rosebud has also. Apparently your knowledge of horses is on par with everything else you post. A horse can see to the rear (since they are a prey species it is handy to know it something is sneaking up behind you) and can move to the rear on their own without any training. Its not a matter of like or dislike. Its the structure of the animal. A horse can move quickly to the rear if they want to without a cue to do so. According to my GPS John moved at 7 mph backing up and I didn't ask him to do it. AZ Ranger ;D Just wiping a mouthful of coffee of the pc screen......
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