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Post by markland on Jun 14, 2011 14:50:37 GMT -6
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Post by tubman13 on Jan 27, 2014 8:58:46 GMT -6
Ah, Markland, a subject near and dear to my heart, and one I am sure these board members could fill me in on.
Was Reno the key driving force behind this RCOI?
Why would the President of a succeeding administration call, for the inquiry? Was this part of an Army white wash? Why did Reno start a fight with John Manley of the 22nd Infantry Regiment in the late Fall of 1876 in the officers' club at FT. Abraham Lincoln? Why were all officers of the 7th Cavalry- who participated in the fight- still living with the exception of Capt. Thomas French and !st Lt. Francis Gibson?(French was called then excused) Why was no one from Co. M, not even senior non-coms called? Did some of the 7th's officers, say different things after retirement? Had they spoken differently prior to the inquiry? Was 1st Lt. Jesse M. Lee(9th Infantry Regiment) THE RIGHT PERSON TO BE ASKING THE QUESTIONS
I don't expect a great deal of play on my questions.
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Post by fred on Jan 27, 2014 9:51:36 GMT -6
Cannot answer all of these, but let me give it a shot... Was Reno the key driving force behind this RCOI? Yes. He didn't. Hayes was president at the time of the inquiry and he was president when Reno requested it. Hayes was also a MG in the Union Army during the Civil War and cited for bravery a half-dozen times or more. I am sure he was rather sympathetic to the military. Absolutely not. Don't know. French was alive, but he wasn't called because he was facing a court-martial for conduct unbecoming, I believe. He should have been called; big mistake not to. He died a couple years later, booze-iris, I believe, the same as Weir. By the way he has also attended my school, as did several other LBH guys. Don't know. Interesting. I think so, absolutely. Best wishes, Fred. |
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Post by Dark Cloud on Jan 27, 2014 10:15:43 GMT -6
"Why did Reno start a fight with John Manley of the 22nd Infantry Regiment in the late Fall of 1876 in the officers' club at FT. Abraham Lincoln?"
Alcohol was possibly involved. Rare in the military, of course, but time to man up and face fact.
"Why were all officers of the 7th Cavalry- who participated in the fight- still living" ....... ? Why are we still living?
".....with the exception of Capt. Thomas French and !st Lt. Francis Gibson?(French was called then excused)" Weir was dead. French and Gibson were still alive.
Officers changed their stories. Godfrey paramount. He said he saw near zero mutilations. Later, all were mutilated......except Custer. It would not be unkind to suspect certain aspects of the tales were designed to comfort women, notably Margaret Custer Calhoun who lost a husband, three brothers, and a nephew and many friends. It would be appropriate to the time and noble of the men if they somewhat inflated the number of shells about the Calhoun site to imply a huge fight there. It started with Moylan, who was Calhoun's brother in law.
Nobody thought this battle would linger in memory long, certainly not as it had. The concept of 'Greater Truth' which should be remembered. There is a short video about Last Words that actually catches this very well: do we remember the Last Words, no matter how disgusting? Or the mostly brave and good men who died and who may or may not have said them?
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Post by fred on Jan 27, 2014 10:26:35 GMT -6
"Why did Reno start a fight with John Manley of the 22nd Infantry Regiment in the late Fall of 1876 in the officers' club at FT. Abraham Lincoln?" Alcohol was possibly involved. Rare in the military, of course, but time to man up and face fact. Forgot about that one.... But you are absolutely correct. Best wishes, Fred. |
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Post by tubman13 on Jan 27, 2014 11:22:57 GMT -6
Fred, actual charges for French, drunk while on duty, conduct unbecoming, and violating the terms of his close arrest. The Army had known of French's benders since the early 70's, but he was a good warrior. I for one think, he was kept out because he would not take the party line and play nice.
I know about Harrison's military background, but LBH happened under Grant. Could Harrison have not wanted to shake up an old boy network? I don't claim to know anything here, just ruminating.
Dark Cloud, alcohol perish the thought. I didn't start partaking until I got out and rarely did I witness others. I have however made up for it since I got out.
Regards,
Tom
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Post by montrose on Jan 27, 2014 12:28:44 GMT -6
Fred wrote, "By the way he has also attended my school, as did several other LBH guys."
Hmmm. You mean the Ringling Brothers Postgraduate School for Clowns? I understand MG is their thesis advisor.
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Post by Dark Cloud on Jan 27, 2014 12:45:34 GMT -6
"Fred, actual charges for French, drunk while on duty, conduct unbecoming, and violating the terms of his close arrest. The Army had known of French's benders since the early 70's, but he was a good warrior. I for one think, he was kept out because he would not take the party line and play nice."
But a crap witness. Drunk on duty? You want the Chicago papers to chat up that? Let's take his word three years later.... Note that French, a great shot, spent his time heroically freeing up the few jammed carbines, a job I'd suspect any could do. They needed good shots on the line. Why was that, do you think? They probably ALL had a drink, but who knows who drank that night in the safety of the mules and horses. I'd wager the actual alcoholics: Weir and French and others....
And what was the "party line?" NOBODY looked good in this fight, including Benteen, but he shone in comparison. And Benteen KNEW it, did from the start. There was no actual basis for the gripes against Reno. He was hard to like, not a great officer, had led a charge that became a rout, but it worked and saved most of his men.
Do my favorite exercise. Just interchange the names Reno and Custer in the synopses of the battle. Reno is wiped out because, being unimaginative and a hack, he followed the book and tried to fight Indians as if they were Confederates and went down with all his men. Heroic Custer, always thinking, took opportunity when he saw it and busted out, leading the way into the unknown at great risk to himself. He then got anything of value off the body of his adjutant, calmly and maturely withheld the hotheads who wanted to rush to save Reno, kept everyone together and survived despite horrific odds.
It's all in the spin. Benteen alone understood this at near a modern day level.
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Post by tubman13 on Mar 19, 2014 16:51:31 GMT -6
Markland, where are you when I need you? Should not this have been the CCOI(Custer Court Of Inquiry), maybe that is what Sheridan was concerned about. Not only could that have shed a bad light on the US Army, but maybe on Sheridan as well. Maybe better LBHCOI.
Regards,
Tom
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Post by AZ Ranger on Mar 20, 2014 6:44:57 GMT -6
If it were than they would not have stopped the Benteen Custer questioning I would think. The focus is set out within the online version.
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Post by tubman13 on Mar 20, 2014 15:33:27 GMT -6
If it were than they would not have stopped the Benteen Custer questioning I would think. The focus is set out within the online version. Ok, Steve you are killing me here, now I have to read the whole thing over again. I am looking for the reasons I felt it was a white wash and dog and pony show. I am only up to day 6, I will have to get to back to you, I already know I have issues with no Company M, and I supported Reno and Benteen the first time.
Regards, Tom
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Post by AZ Ranger on Mar 21, 2014 6:23:41 GMT -6
If it were than they would not have stopped the Benteen Custer questioning I would think. The focus is set out within the online version. Ok, Steve you are killing me here, now I have to read the whole thing over again. I am looking for the reasons I felt it was a white wash and dog and pony show. I am only up to day 6, I will have to get to back to you, I already know I have issues with no Company M, and I supported Reno and Benteen the first time.
Regards, Tom
Tom luckily it is in the beginning. Since I am not an attorney and haven't ever been to a COI I can only read and see the similarities between the court systems that I am familiar with. Reno has an attorney and Benteen does not. Reno asks questions and Benteen does not. When the recorder asked Benteen about his relations to Custer there was an objection by Reno's attorney and the court agreed with the objection and stopped that line of questioning. The court needed to hear everything that would have an influenced Reno's conduct which is substantial but once it was outside of that such as whether Benteen got along with Custer the court stopped the questioning. Here is the link to the page that states the RCOI was to look at Reno conduct. digicoll.library.wisc.edu/cgi-bin/History/History-idx?type=turn&entity=History.Reno.p0024&id=History.Reno&isize=MRegards Steve |
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Post by tubman13 on Mar 23, 2014 13:33:47 GMT -6
Ok, Steve you are killing me here, now I have to read the whole thing over again. I am looking for the reasons I felt it was a white wash and dog and pony show. I am only up to day 6, I will have to get to back to you, I already know I have issues with no Company M, and I supported Reno and Benteen the first time.
Regards, Tom
Tom luckily it is in the beginning. Since I am not an attorney and haven't ever been to a COI I can only read and see the similarities between the court systems that I am familiar with. Reno has an attorney and Benteen does not. Reno asks questions and Benteen does not. When the recorder asked Benteen about his relations to Custer there was an objection by Reno's attorney and the court agreed with the objection and stopped that line of questioning. The court needed to hear everything that would have an influenced Reno's conduct which is substantial but once it was outside of that such as whether Benteen got along with Custer the court stopped the questioning. Here is the link to the page that states the RCOI was to look at Reno conduct. digicoll.library.wisc.edu/cgi-bin/History/History-idx?type=turn&entity=History.Reno.p0024&id=History.Reno&isize=MRegards Steve Steve, I am very A. R., I have finished re-reading. I still like Edgerly (1) and Churchill(2). I still think it was white wash and I find no fault with Reno or Benteen. I still would not buy Reno dinner and my relationship with Benteen would be like a first round draft pick in the NFL going to a Sadie Hawkins dance with D.C., if he were a girl
Regards, Tom.
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Post by tubman13 on Mar 23, 2014 13:37:33 GMT -6
I think I am ok with the above post for at least a week as DC said, he was exhausted.
Regards,
Tom
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Post by AZ Ranger on Mar 24, 2014 8:06:04 GMT -6
It's not a matter of who we like. Most people think this court was to look into the whole battle and it was not. What part of Reno's decision making do you think was left out? I am sure that if something else was uncovered then that could be looked at also. If not giving information outside of that which is required to make a judgement regarding Reno's action is a white wash than all percedings are white wash. There are lots of people testifying in actual trials that need further investigation.
Regards
AZ Ranger
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