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Post by Dark Cloud on Jan 1, 2011 11:28:20 GMT -6
Reading Fred's breakdown of Martini's tales through the years on the other board, I feel the need to open up a sore point. It's my opinion that the meeting between Martin and Boston did not take place. I've annoyed and exhausted the board in years past on this, but because it might still be affecting time/motion studies, I again cast doubt.
This for the following reasons:
1. In the RCOI, on his last page of testimony, Martini says Custer was there with his "brotherS and his nephew." This suggests Boston had already arrived.
Correctly and for good reason, it is countered that another copy says 'brother.' Fair enough, and there are likely all sorts of those errors.
But the plural here is supported by the following question, and that by the Recorder Lee who would have loved to dwell upon the meeting between the two. "Were those all around him at the time?"
It is possible that you could be referencing only two people as 'those all around him', but it doesn't spring to lip or mind. First, two cannot be all around him, but three could. Further, if we were to describe two people with another, it would emerge as 'they were there with him.' Or better: 'both were there with him' would appear in question or answer.
This is not proof, but it is consistent and as one with other aspects. In any case, Recorder Lee did not jump at the opportunity to use the Boston heroism to contrast with Reno and Benteen. That alone does it for me.
2. In the RCOI Martin gives Benteen the role of pointing out the horse wound. And Benteen's testimony supports it. It is neither a plus or minus to Benteen.
3. Lee would have been ape to get the public to hear about Boston's heroic ride to death, and Whitaker entirely orgasmic. But the story doesn't appear for decades, and that, I think, after the note to Benteen, thought lost, was found and provided to West Point and Martini was in the news again. Or, rather, may have wanted to be since he made a partial living off his role in the battle. 4. Later with Camp, BOSTON suddenly is the one who informs Martini his horse is shot in the new tales. There are all sorts of difficulties here, one way or the other. It's hard to believe that the horse itself didn't inform Martini by limp or informational display of pain or discomfort. I'd think it an inexperienced horseman who would not notice, and confuse a limp with exhaustion as the original tale suggests.
Appearing with this is the dramatic 'look back' to see Sioux waving blankets and surrounding Custer that he himself had barely escaped. And, etc.
5. In later life, again it's Benteen in that role.
6. Martini was asked if he was told he would meet someone on his ride back. No. But there was a cue if not reflective to the question to introduce Boston. Further, if the tale was known (and it is not possible such a story, if true, would not have found outlet through Martini) why didn't the Recorder jump on it? Given the fact Martini also later also claimed to have met two other men, for three, why wasn't this considered of interest to either the Recorder or known to Martini at the RCOI?
7. As barely relevant, Kanipe doesn't meet Boston or notice him either and he left earlier, but didn't he claim to have met stragglers? The stragglers met Martini before Boston in a later version. Not a big Kanipe supporter, but he did putter back for one reason or another and didn't see a solo rider 'galloping' to his brother as he surely would have. Unless Boston's arrival was about the time Kanipe took off.
It's such a great story since it appeared that nobody wants to lose it. But I don't think it happened, and all sorts of things locked to it - as Gray does, as Gray haters also do - are freed by its removal. That people aren't willing to do it speaks to the power of glurge and sentimentality and Oprah like tendencies and literary template back to oral myths. It is often strongest in people who'd least likely spring to mind as having it.
That said, I surely had it for a long time. I don't anymore, not from purifying experience but from the language and the known fueling motivations that led to the RCOI in the first place. If the Boston story was known, it would be in the record. It was still gestating then, and for years after.
Benteen's annoyance with Martini only appeared after the battle, when the cavalier suggestion Custer had attacked the camp and people were running played a role in Benteen's actions. He later allowed Martini to claim he'd been the last white man to see Custer alive and write a nice piece. Benteen was a racist and a class snob - a basis for disdain of Custer - but he acted in accordance with conceptions of honorable conduct.
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Post by fred on Jan 1, 2011 15:23:21 GMT -6
Your conclusion is far from unreasonable and I for one wouldn't spend a lot of capital refuting it. I do think, however, your line of reasoning really stretches the cord.
The odd part about it is that someone either lied or had his head in the sand, for Boston clearly traveled that way. The other odd part about it is that the whole affair doesn't mean a thing, the only conclusion I have been able to derive being that Custer-- at some point, which I believe to be on Luce Ridge-- found out that Reno was in at least a modicum of trouble. You will have to read Book II to find out all the implications, but I believe my reasoning is extremely sound (naturally!).
While I say implications, it wouldn't have made a difference anyway.
I am glad you picked up Kanipe's lack of mentioning seeing Boston Custer, for that too implicates Kanipe in his so-called "message" mission. While you may not be a big fan of "timing," I am, and the Kanipe business is indicting.
I was thinking of posting my Kanipe notes-- a similar set to the Martini stuff on the other boards-- but they are about twice as long and I don't know if they would fit without splitting them, something I would rather not do.
If you think it is worthwhile and they would help or be of interest, I may try it... but again... I need to be told.
Hope you had a good new year, Darkcloud... and a better one as the days go by.
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by Dark Cloud on Jan 1, 2011 16:58:36 GMT -6
Well, suppose Boston arrived about when Kanipe left, at least by Kanipe's tale and on the other side of Sharpshooter Ridge so they miss each other, say 10-15 minutes before Martini left. That means, before Martini was sent, Custer probably knew about Reno, roughly where the rest of the guys were, and yet still sent that message and did whatever he did.
That Boston was a bundle of information/misinformation has been accepted to unknown effect, but hitherto it would have played no role in the note to Benteen. Suppose it did. What changes?
Gray's time lines are wobbled, because he directly notes the time of the 'meeting' as verification for speeds and melding accounts. Others as well.
And is it possible the waving figure on the high ground.......was only Boston? Further, what if Custer waved and later Boston did, and we're trying to meld two events? Waving sounds like something the clueless but enthusiastic would do. The descriptions from Martin, Kanipe, and Curley could be retrofitted detail to verify something they'd not themselves witnessed but felt obliged to include.
What does it do to the Thompson scenario (s)?
As for Kanipe. Yes. Well. Hm. See if there's any interest in pursuing this (there never has been....) before posting stuff if you're going to publish it. If there's interest and a discussion at least it might benefit you to have stuff argued, and for everyone in general to see it at all.
If Boston arrived sooner than previously understood, how does it affect the interconnections back on Ash/Reno Creek?
It's not that I don't think timing important, it is, it's that I don't think we have anything solid to base stuff on. It's what drove me bat guano insane about mccaryf announcing 500 separate mentions of time (I think it was) as verification for something without even ascertaining who had the watches, or flensing out the agreed upon tales from the letter writing frenzy after. They were not individual verifications of a glanced-at watch at an event (and we don't know what time each was set to), but could be numerous mentions of a single person's story, which cannot be used to support each other.
It's pretty clear time meant little in the field to the officers, so I'd have a hard time believing the enlisted guys were fanatics. Or the scouts, for that matter, unless they started saying we got up at 0420 rather than 'with the sun' in accounts and letters.
And a Happy, Healthy, and Helpful New Year to you, and everyone, as well. Clean mind, clean body, the choice is yours.
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Post by fred on Jan 1, 2011 18:58:59 GMT -6
Darkcloud, please... you of all people... read this carefully and give me a yes or a no. I will post the "Kanipe" file if it helps you, if you are interested in seeing it. My only problem is that it is long. The Martini one you saw on the other boards is about 11 Word pages; Kanipe's is 17. The formatting is the same. These are part of 169 separate "personnel" files, totaling 589 pages, and I have no intention of publishing them raw, like you saw over there. I post this stuff to help... that is all. I developed these things to help me sort things out. They are loaded-- in some cases-- with my own personal notes, something those clowns on the other boards are already taking me to task for. I don't need it, because all they are doing is distorting anew what they distorted before. You can already see that "keogh" has misinterpreted where Martini got the note because he cherry-picked the data without regard to what else Martini said in that regard. I guess that part of it fits with one of his theories!!
These so-called "personnel" files of mine are merely chronological synopses of what all these guys said. I have eliminated the chaff and hopefully retained only the pertinent comments, then wise-cracked the stuff with my own spillage.
Again... it is like that "time, distance, speed" file I posted here. If it helps, if it is interesting, I'll post it. And again too, this is probably the only file like it, a file that details what this man said over the years-- chronologically-- without muddying the testimonies with everyone else's or a 500-page dissertation. That is why I set them up this way.
Happy new year, Darkcloud... or did I already say that? Well, even if I did, happy new year. Stay warm. When I visit my old school chum in Buena Vista, I'll drive through Boulder and buy you a drink. You can punch me in the nose... but I'll still pay for your drink.
Best wishes, Fred.
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Reddirt
Full Member
Life is But a Dream...
Posts: 208
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Post by Reddirt on Jan 3, 2011 9:40:09 GMT -6
Every credible student of the battle (including you) have accepted the position that Martin did meet with and exchange words with Boston. I can think of no reason why Martin would have lied about the encounter. That he may have lied is possible but hardly probable.
When dealing with a topic that has such an extraordinary amount of unknown factors, controversy, innuendos, "what-ifs", and "how comes" we may feel relatively safe that Martins' memory was right about this one.
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Post by Dark Cloud on Jan 3, 2011 21:11:25 GMT -6
This is referencing stuff on the They Wish They'd Said That thread about Martini, brought back.
Okay. I was unaware that Lee found a meeting between Martini and Boston Custer irrelevant, and I don't know how he could. Does he mention this event somewhere? Missed it, if so, and my supposition is baseless if Martini had told the tale. If Lee's goal was to make Reno out a coward and to have abandoned Custer - as opposed to being a dispassionate Recorder, which he was not - than this story would bleed in the minds of Scofield, Merritt and the others when they had to make a verdict, and we can well imagine - and soberly imagine, even - that the newspapers would not be satisfied if a woman in the United States did not weep at the tale, or a man refused to join the Reno lynching after they applied their Hysteric -O - Meter to the writing. It would be difficult to overcome: Boston got there, how come nobody else tried?
I can't put this back in the bottle. I tried once.
In CLC by Gray:
page 258. Boston zoots past Benteen as Benteen re-enters Reno Creek proper above the Lone Tipi.
Page 264 Edgerly recounts the tale, but nearly 20 years after and while he may recall Boston waving, he at that point could well have been subject to others' opinions and conflated event times.
Page 348. Look what could change if Boston was already there (only a slightly faster clip would have done it).
In short, if Boston was faster and this half baked theory correct, Custer's fight could have started, and ended, sooner than some suppose.
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Post by fred on Jan 3, 2011 22:03:03 GMT -6
No, no, no! I am sorry; I didn't mean to mislead you. It is my opinion Lee found it irrelevant. He found it so, because he probably never gave it any thought. I do not know if the name Boston Custer ever even came up in the entire RCOI. I tried "word searching" it through my files and do not recall ever finding it. I had to piece the whole thing together and the only reason I did so was because I found a reference to it by McDougall. I even had to scrounge up the Edgerly comment.
As for Edgerly's recollection, here is what I have:
Liddic, Bruce R., Vanishing Victory, page 39, citing in footnote 72, Carroll, John M., The Gibson and Edgerly Narratives, privately printed, no date, page 5:
Edgerly claimed that, “He (Boston) had stayed back with the pack train and was now hurrying up to join the general’s immediate command. He have me a cheery salutation as he passed, and with a smile on his face, rode to his death” [39].
Edgerly, however, generally wrote these notes between 1876 and 1881, so while they show up at a much later date, it is not certain they were written that late... or that early, for that matter. I checked through his handwritten letters, however, and did not find a reference, so it must have been at the later end of that range.
No issue here other than Gray's location of the lone tepee.
It is my firm conviction that Custer's fight began-- and here we go again with definitions of "when"-- but let's say the excursion to Ford B was the beginning. We could define that as about 3 PM watch-time, the equivalent to 2:03 PM local sun (which is what Gray used).
This, of course, brings up the other can of worms: what standard were they using. Gray says local sun, but I disagree completely.
Based on all my work I figured the Custer end of the fighting ended at 4:40 PM, watch-time, or 3:43 PM. Gray had it considerably later, 5:20 or 6:20, local sun. (My main file corrupted and I cannot open it; necessitates a trip to the Apple store.) I do not have Gray's time readily available, but our difference is at least two hours, I believe.
That is an ending that is a lot "sooner than" many "suppose." Again, however, Gray ignored a lot of things participants claimed and that all led to what I believe are erroneous conclusions, the ending time merely one of them.
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by fred on Jan 3, 2011 22:03:35 GMT -6
No, no, no! I am sorry; I didn't mean to mislead you. It is my opinion Lee found it irrelevant. He found it so, because he probably never gave it any thought. I do not know if the name Boston Custer ever even came up in the entire RCOI. I tried "word searching" it through my files and do not recall ever finding it. I had to piece the whole thing together and the only reason I did so was because I found a reference to it by McDougall. I even had to scrounge up the Edgerly comment.
As for Edgerly's recollection, here is what I have:
Liddic, Bruce R., Vanishing Victory, page 39, citing in footnote 72, Carroll, John M., The Gibson and Edgerly Narratives, privately printed, no date, page 5:
Edgerly claimed that, “He (Boston) had stayed back with the pack train and was now hurrying up to join the general’s immediate command. He have me a cheery salutation as he passed, and with a smile on his face, rode to his death” [39].
Edgerly, however, generally wrote these notes between 1876 and 1881, so while they show up at a much later date, it is not certain they were written that late... or that early, for that matter. I checked through his handwritten letters, however, and did not find a reference, so it must have been at the later end of that range.
No issue here other than Gray's location of the lone tepee.
It is my firm conviction that Custer's fight began-- and here we go again with definitions of "when"-- but let's say the excursion to Ford B was the beginning. We could define that as about 3 PM watch-time, the equivalent to 2:03 PM local sun (which is what Gray used).
This, of course, brings up the other can of worms: what standard were they using. Gray says local sun, but I disagree completely.
Based on all my work I figured the Custer end of the fighting ended at 4:40 PM, watch-time, or 3:43 PM. Gray had it considerably later, 5:20 or 6:20, local sun. (My main file corrupted and I cannot open it; necessitates a trip to the Apple store.) I do not have Gray's time readily available, but our difference is at least two hours, I believe.
That is an ending that is a lot "sooner than" many "suppose." Again, however, Gray ignored a lot of things participants claimed and that all led to what I believe are erroneous conclusions, the ending time merely one of them.
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by KarlKoz on Jan 4, 2011 10:56:05 GMT -6
Went to the online site for the RCOI digital.library.wisc.edu/1711.dl/History.Reno and a search for "Boston Custer" shows up only twice: listed in Reno's report as his body being found (p. 564 of Exhibit no. 4, pp. 561-564) and being included in the list of casualties (p. 570 of Exhibit no. 6, pp. 566-572)
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Post by Dark Cloud on Jan 4, 2011 11:27:08 GMT -6
Lee also asked Martini if he'd been expecting to meet anyone on the way back. 'No.' Odd question, probably referencing a potential messenger from Benteen or Reno, since what Boston did or would do would not have been a concern at that point.
It didn't happen. And Martini thought his horse was tired which it may have been when it was, in fact, shot as well. This isn't the most alert guy on the planet.
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Post by shan on Jan 4, 2011 17:11:57 GMT -6
Reading through these posts has prompted a thought. I've always tended to be rather skeptical about the part of one of Martins stories where he says he looked back and saw indians swarming to attack some, or all of Custers force who were if I remember dismounted. Forgive me if I have got a number of the details wrong, I'm afraid I haven't got any of my books to hand, but you get the gist.
I had always assumed he meant Indians swarming across the river and had thus tried to envisage this happening down by the ford somewhere. But, try as I might I could never square it with Martins probable line of sight either from close to the bottom of Cedar Coulee, or else when he arrived back on the bluffs. So, and I suppose this is more of a question than anything, could he have seen Luce ridge from Cedar coulee?
When I was on the battlefield I can remember looking down Cedar, but I can't for the life of me remember what I saw. Makes one feel a little ashamed at the way we posters on all boards---and I include myself in this--- continually castigate almost everyone who took part in the battle for their contradictory stories and failure of memory.
If he saw some sort of action happening on Luce then he may have seen part of the skirmishing with Wolf Tooth's band, and assumed it was more serious than it was.
Shan
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Post by Dark Cloud on Jan 4, 2011 17:48:12 GMT -6
Like the meeting with Boston, this variant appeared decades after the fact and Martin had heard all the other stories. It's not possible such detail would not appear by the RCOI, and certainly at it.
It's a good example of why we should ignore anything that first appears after 1879 at the RCOI. We WILL lose some truth, but the elaborations and fictions vanish and the tale makes sense and of a piece with how people acted in Indian warfare and in their own particular past. Once that is set, things that fit with it can be inserted with caveats. But it's moronic to take third hand tales decades after and treat it as sworn testimony closer to the event.
If you don't, you get presented with the 7th doing military precision manuever for which there is no record of training and to no known point anyway except giving the wanna be's opportunity to emote for the ages, and we're to believe the 7th debuted this in battle from some osmotic understanding or Vulcan mind meld.
Read about the quality of British cavalry after the Napoleonic wars and probably during them, since the same complaints were made through WWI. These were the world standard for a century.
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Post by fred on Jan 4, 2011 19:54:46 GMT -6
Shan,
That "swarming" business popped up years later. Quite frankly, I accept almost nothing the man said after the RCOI. You cannot trust a story once it has changed and every time Martini told his tale it changed, Martini getting ever closer to the action, always the last man to see Custer alive.
His RCOI testimony was too precise to be wrong. As Darkcloud said, he wasn't the brightest guy on the planet, and he was under oath, something I believe would have snapped him to attention. The questions were direct and he answered them equally directly. There may have been some language confusion, but that would be understandable in a situation like this... he was probably nervous and a bit intimidated.
When asked about the note, he said "head" of the coulee, not mouth, and he described the distances almost perfectly from where Custer viewed the valley, thus ruling out any trip to MTC. His testimony is not easy to follow because of the lack of proper place names, but it can be deciphered nonetheless. "Indians swarming" was also in line with the then-believed "fatalistic" approach, just too convenient for my liking. Preaching that partyline also makes it easier for him to be believed when he changes his story placing himself a lot closer to the ultimate action.
We want to be more important as we get older, but the fact that I ran patrols in Vietnam didn't make me a LRRP. Unfortunately.
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by fred on Jan 4, 2011 20:28:28 GMT -6
It's a good example of why we should ignore anything that first appears after 1879 at the RCOI. We WILL lose some truth, but the elaborations and fictions vanish and the tale makes sense and of a piece with how people acted in Indian warfare and in their own particular past. Once that is set, things that fit with it can be inserted with caveats. But it's moronic to take third hand tales decades after and treat it as sworn testimony closer to the event. This is precisely why Martini's tales so many years later are nonsense. Certainly distorted. Of course those who claim it was all Jesse Lee's fault won't believe it. By the way, the only reason I give any credence to the Martini/Boston Custer meeting was because of Edgerly's comments and the timing involved, meaning Boston's and Martini's paths probably crossed. My belief is more "it could have happened" than it "did happen." Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by noggy on May 28, 2023 0:39:46 GMT -6
Some make the claim that Boston was paid as a forage-master. Does anyone have any EVEDENCE that this is a fact? I would expect there to be a record of some sort by the government showing Boston was on the pay-roll. Rosebud Good question...First, I don't think it is beyond the realm of possibility that he acted as a forage-master without being "officially" being on the toll as one. I think in 1874, he had a number of "jobs", including a scout, which I doubt he was qualified ti be, but maybe it was just an excuse for GAC to bring along his brother? Multi-tasker, ad-hoc, jack of all trades? Wasn't Autie also just given a token role in order to come along? That being said, a forage-master would be a more important job, I reckon. I found an interview with Jacob Adams who was with the packs on the 25th. I THINK he says BC acted as forage-master, but not 100% sure because at times it may look like there are inputs from the owner of the website www.astonisher.com/archives/100voices/jacob_adams2_little_big_horn.html Quote: " On this little, barren, yellow knoll, surrounded by a circle of the band horses which he had undoubtedly killed to form a breastwork, I found General Custer. With him lay Captain Custer, Boston Custer -- who was forage master of the expedition -- and Adjutant-General Cook." All the best, Noggy
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