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Post by Dark Cloud on Dec 17, 2010 11:18:42 GMT -6
It pleases me to see Benteen being credited, by military pros, with being a military pro. It's always been my belief that was so, and that he did nothing 'wrong' based on what he could have known at the time, but I had no personal experience to draw upon to support it.
It also is good to see people who have ridden the ground to point out how closely it supports Benteen's accounts and decisions and removes a great deal of idiotic conspiracy nonsense of the sort the man has had to endure from those who'd never dare accuse him of such. We 'know' Benteen from the letters sent to a conniving liar, and in them years of anger explode in this private venting. How many combat officers vented in letters or bull sessions since would choose to be remembered for what was said in them, or would consider it at all fair?
I understand how he might rankle. But I do not think it fair or honest considering everything.
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Post by fred on Dec 17, 2010 11:19:27 GMT -6
. I'm still trying to figure out where the hell OOORAH came from. That was the original grunt or sound that emanated from a marine officer's mouth when the marines were told the army would take over all the thinking responsibilities for anything to do with land warfare. Where do you think they got the motto, "Semper Fi," from? That was the guy's name: Major Semp Fidelis. His brother, Hiram, was also a marine. They called him "Hi." They also had a sister named Adeste. Happened around 1800 or so. It's all in their history book. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by crzhrs on Dec 17, 2010 12:17:05 GMT -6
<This means that Custer was well aware when he ordered Reno to attack that Benteen and McDougall were out of supporting distance>
Yes . . . but did Benteen know that?
Benteen is the odd man out here. He had no idea of the further separation of command, no idea of the sighting of "fleeing Indians" . . . no idea of an attack order.
Benteen was kept in the dark for a large part of the most important part of Custer's "plan". By the time of Kanipe's message (still questionable about him being a "messenger") and Martini's "Be Quick" note Benteen was wondering "just what the heck am I doing floundering around in no-man's land.
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Post by benteen on Dec 17, 2010 12:28:14 GMT -6
. I'm still trying to figure out where the hell OOORAH came from. That was the original grunt or sound that emanated from a marine officer's mouth when the marines were told the army would take over all the thinking responsibilities for anything to do with land warfare. Where do you think they got the motto, "Semper Fi," from? That was the guy's name: Major Semp Fidelis. His brother, Hiram, was also a marine. They called him "Hi." They also had a sister named Adeste. Happened around 1800 or so. It's all in their history book. Best wishes, Fred. Fred, LOL Capt well done. Should have known I couldn't slip that one by Steve, my brother you cant let the Army get away with that can you.I would respond myself but unfortunately I need a haircut, my ankle hurts,the coffee is boiling over,so Ill go to the rear with the gear, but ill be rootin for ya <G> Be Well fellas Dan
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Post by benteen on Dec 17, 2010 12:34:25 GMT -6
<This means that Custer was well aware when he ordered Reno to attack that Benteen and McDougall were out of supporting distance> Yes . . . but did Benteen know that? Benteen is the odd man out here. He had no idea of the further separation of command, no idea of the sighting of "fleeing Indians" . . . no idea of an attack order. Benteen was kept in the dark for a large part of the most important part of Custer's "plan". By the time of Kanipe's message (still questionable about him being a "messenger") and Martini's "Be Quick" note Benteen was wondering "just what the heck am I doing floundering around in no-man's land. Horse, I couldn't agree more with you. I believe Custer kept everyone in the dark because he was in the dark.I don't think Custer had any idea what he was going to do once he sent Reno to attack.As the facts seem to indicate, he apparently did nothing Be Well Dan
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Post by crzhrs on Dec 17, 2010 14:01:49 GMT -6
Apparently we are in agreement that Custer was "winging it" . . . and expecting that the Indians were going to do what they usually do . . . run when the Great White Army approaches. Yet, no one had any idea of just exactly where the village was, no exact knowledge of its size, disposition, let alone fighting strength.
Custer's mind-set was the Indians were going to run and they better stop them from going to far afield that the command couldn't catch up with them.
Custer's plan was to pin them down, force them to fight, let them make the first move . . . and whatever happens his command was fully capable of dealing with it.
As Reno & Custer found out the command was not fully capable of dealing with it.
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Post by Dark Cloud on Dec 17, 2010 14:45:22 GMT -6
"....Benteen was wondering "just what the heck am I doing floundering around in no-man's land."
Benteen had made his decision and returned to the trail long before Kanipe and Martin reappeared in his life.
I think it a mistake to credit the Indians with much for the victory. They bolluxed it as totally as Custer but had the numbers to be forgiven by fate and to win. It's misleading to credit 'these' Indians as so much more than those types huddled around the reservation. Crazy Horse was whipped within a year, others previous, and Sitting Bull had to hide in Canada.
This was a rare situation where the camp was too big to be organized to disperse at attack (for that matter, too big to have organized patrols or a command structure), and so they had to fight whether they wanted to or not just to protect what had to have been a chaotic mess of thousands of horses, civvies and warriors screaming around in a lot of dust and smoke.
It's well to realize that for all its fiascoes, the campaign of 1876 was successful and the Sioux and Cheyenne were never a major threat again and mostly returned to the rez. The visualized successful campaign of Terry and Sheridan wouldn't have been much different except more dead Indians and a parade somewhere after one (1) battle. That's hardly realistic and I doubt actual soldiers thought one (1) battle would do it. Whether the whites won or lost the battle they had won the war before Crook left Ft. Fetterman back in March.
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Post by crzhrs on Dec 17, 2010 15:20:35 GMT -6
This was a MAJOR military campaign . . . thousands of US troops and auxiliaries sent out to end once and for all Indian resistance on the Northern Plains.
You can pooh-pooh all you want about Indian determination and resistance.
The Indians gathered in a once-in-a-lifetime camp . . . thousands of them in a last-stand against forced internment in a concentration-camp scenario.
In hindsight we can see a futile attempt to do so . . . but at the time it seemed the only way to keep a semblance of the "Old Ways".
PS: The outcome of the Indian-vs.-White Man was over just as soon as Europeans arrived on the shores of the New World. However, no one told the Indians their way of life was over.
I can only tip my hat to anyone who makes a stand against those who try to impose their way of life on others . . . and as we have seen since the last "battle" of Wounded Knee the imposed way of life on Indigenous People in what is now the United States has not been beneficial to those who succumbed to the oppressors.
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Post by Dark Cloud on Dec 17, 2010 15:47:34 GMT -6
The Indian Wars in bulk were not a major campaign, or in aggregate much of a battle, either. There were only 25k men in the Army in total in 1876.
You're romanticizing the Indian. They treated each other far worse than the whites in aggregate treated them. You can tip your hat to who you wish, but what they were fighting for was not 'freedom' or anything beyond maintenance of the patriarchy because the men could not imagine a world with different roles for themselves. It's not like they'd made a list of options and discussed what would be best for their people and were willing to reduce their status to do so.
And, they sold each other out religiously. Just like everyone else, everywhere else.
The oppressors allow them to have a written language and therefore a semblance of 'history.' They were no more heroic in their defiance than the Japanese Banzai charges, which did nothing but get the Emperor's soldiers killed and excused them from the adult responsibilities of providing for families and tribes and nation and having to admit they lost as warriors. God forbid a man should admit failure. Better he and his family die to avoid such shame.
If we had treated the Indians as they treated each other, we'd have taken the land, killed whoever resisted, with no silly prisons or schools or any of that. We'd have sold the women and children and forcibly melded them in unless they annoyed, then 'bang!' with no judicial review. There would be no nonsense about giving a rat's butt about prisoner's dignity and 'rights' and all that, much less that conquered people's story and culture. There would be no pretend nationhood and respect for religious observances that were contrary to the power structure then in place. They'd be with THE program or dead and forgotten.
To the very end, Indians hated each other more than the whites, which is why they were conquered with so little effort, all things considered. The fear of Indian attack receded as quickly and broadly as the emigration west. Indians were not a big concern of the US government, but they were easy media ever-green stories to continue literary templates established in Europe centuries previous.
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Post by clw on Dec 17, 2010 17:58:09 GMT -6
They treated each other far worse than the whites in aggregate treated them. Oh bull crap, Richard. Intertribal warfare was about territory; territory needed to hunt and survive. When one tribe pushed another, skirmishes usually decided the issue. Wholesale slaughter was rare for the practical reason that no one wanted to risk annihilation. Or in other words, they were fighting for their way of life. How ridiculous. What about Red Cloud, Spotted Tail, Black Kettle just off the top of my head? They did just exactly that. And yet Sitting Bull and Crazy Horse came in rather than let their people die. This is conjecture and opinion for the sake of emphasis. Very unlike you.
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Post by fred on Dec 17, 2010 18:28:15 GMT -6
I think I am kind of in between here and do not wish to engage... no reconnaissance-in-force, here, I'll tell you, but the best description-- bar none-- of the village at the LBH... and this may temper some... well, tempers... was posted a few years ago on this site by "CLW." My "search engine" bores the hell out of me and I am as sick-- right now-- as a dog, so I resort to the copy I made of it at the time. That means I have neither the date nor the thread; neither the context nor the debate... but the damn thing is beautifully researched and every time I refer to the Indians at the LBH, I break this out and go over it.
I do not know whether it adds anything here, but it is well worth posting again.
"This is all based on oral history. I have transcripts of tapes and have had long conversations with many, especially two men who are descendents of Crazy Horse—one a wicasa wakan or holy man who will never seek to make these things common knowledge. It doesn’t interest him to do so and he chooses who he speaks with. It took two years for me to be honored with his tales. And some may be just that, as there are spiritual aspects to his stories most white men would never believe. All I ask is that you receive this in spirit it was given to me and with which I give to you.... "The camps weren’t spread as far across the valley as many believe consequently we have a longer village. I agree with you completely (and have been told) that the village was set up for defense that throws Michno’s density theories out the window. At one point I was convinced that the village was surprised, but now I think the NDN accounts that mention surprise are merely referring to how long it took for word to spread through this massive camp that an attack had occurred at the south end and, as in any society, not everybody knew how seriously the leaders/elders viewed the inevitability of attack. These elders were expecting trouble. Unlike the Rosebud, they made the decision not to go out looking for it because of Sitting Bull's vision of soldiers falling into camp—whether you believe that or not, they did. After defeating Crook and secure in having such huge numbers, they were prepared to meet the army on ground of their choosing. Good ground, too. Just because we’re told they moved down the valley following game, it doesn't preclude them from having chosen the ground for defense. Keeping the river and bluffs at their back fits here too in terms of defense, making them harder to surround, not to mention the fact they’d all want to be as close to water as possible—the women would have made that priority clear. For these reasons, they stayed closer along the river, which means the campground was longer (north to south) and didn’t spread over the entire valley. McGuire (originally) and Camp both show camps north of MTC on their maps. So does Philo Clark. In fact Clark’s map coincides exactly with how I’ve been told the battle was fought. Take a look at his map on the back of the McElfresh map. Near as I can tell, this theory that the camps stopped at MTC was a later development. "I also believe the oral history I’ve been told indicating that what most refer to as the Oglala camp, (approximately opposite MTC because it was the only place the village was really vulnerable to the east), was in fact a warrior camp, composed of the core of the fighting men and suicide boys who were expecting battle and participating in the preparations and ceremonies that required. It wasn’t unusual for them (or any group of fighting men) to camp away from their families at such a time so as to be ready to fight. Sitting Bull and his people plus most of the elders (elders from all Lakota bands, not just Hunkpapas, as this group of elders comprised the governing body of the village) were covering the southern end and they and the boys guarding the pony herds were mostly the ones that engaged Reno—not that they didn’t represent a formidable foe as most NDN elders were still tough, experienced fighters. Which is why I don't think any tactics Custer could have come up with would have worked. By the time he was engaged he was far too outnumbered by the primary warriors—coming later to battle and which he waded directly into—to have stood a chance no matter how it played out. He tried swinging north (a Ford D exercise) and ran into the Cheyenne (whose elders and herd boys guarded the northern door). Oral history again, indicates that Crazy Horse left Reno in the timber having seen Custer just like so many soldiers did, and returned to rally these warriors early on. "The camps weren’t moved; they left. Again, oral history I’ve heard and have every reason to believe, states that a large group left out for the agencies on the 23rd due to illness, having been camped in the southern valley and I believe these are the abandoned camps shown on many of the old maps.
"No, I don't think the soldiers were overwhelmed at MTC either. My sense of the things I've been told—things are told in broad strokes and I rarely interrupt with questions as I seem to get more that way—is that a determined group of warriors blocked that move and pushed them toward the others who were already infiltrating the ravines and gullies to the north. The sense I get is that no matter which way Custer turned the blocking forces were already in place and waiting—they had wonderful ground on which to play hide and seek. I don’t have the little details of which companies moved where and who exactly they engaged. It’s presented all as a piece when I hear it told—like a synopsis. "I also get the sense—and hardly anyone will likely accept this—that there were warriors held in reserve. Not in the organized way the army held companies in reserve, but I think the ones we hear about taking time to apply paint, pray, etc. were in that warrior camp and aware their fight was coming. The Reno situation was well in hand. Crazy Horse went there, as did some others of his stature, to confirm that before turning back to deal with the next threat, knowing there were more warriors to be utilized. On another level, sure, there were warriors running to and fro looking for any fight they could find which is why they all left Reno on his hill. But my feeling in that under the chaos, there was more leadership than most will ever believe. "I also wanted to clarify that the camps north of MTC were the Cheyenne families. I don’t think the camps extended too far north of MTC. In other words, tack them (about 1,200 people) on north of MTC and you have the layout. "As to Custer not understanding the signs or listening to those who did, I’ve always wondered how the one officer who had such a firm grasp of Indian logic could have ignored that billboard—more like a Burma Shave sequence of billboards! Most of you guys have somewhat convinced me that he was just too entrenched in the scatteration concept to accept they meant to stand and fight. Just won’t settle in my mind though. My suspicion is he knew. But he had a mission and it was do or die. I mean what was he going to do? Turn around? Not GAC. "Now here’s a question you can answer for me and keep in mind how much timelines hurt my head. About how much time do you think elapsed between the time Reno left the timber and Custer engaged? I ask because I want to know, if Crazy Horse left Reno in the timber, does this fit with him getting back to the warrior camp and beginning these deployments to repel Custer. I don’t take everything on faith. I do try to test what I hear against what we know.
"I also need to add a caveat here. Much of what I say about these things is not literally what I’ve been told, but it's supposition based on what I’ve been told. They haven’t studied this battle from the historian’s written record. It’s never told in specific terms, but in a bit here and a piece there. And some of it is very controversial. For instance they’re adamant that Tom Custer fell somewhere around MTC (not at the crossing, further east). I know—then how in hell did he get to LSH? And they’re adamant that Touch The Clouds played a major part in the battle, even though Kingsley and Ephraim are convinced he wasn’t there. I mention these things to show this stuff has inevitably been colored by the ages. But I do feel a core of truth runs through it all. What really fascinates me is the perspective. There’s a whole different feel to the tales when they’re told from the other side without benefit(?) of research, even though they often mesh. And much of what I say carries that view."
Sadee’s responses: To what, I don't know or remember, but the response was worth saving; the question wasn't.
"I have it in my mind from what I’ve heard that the Medicine Tail crossing was at the southern end of the Cheyenne camp. I don't think there’s any question they would defend that ford against anything that came near it and I think their elders and boys were the primary defenders there while the main force was moving into position."
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by clw on Dec 17, 2010 19:04:24 GMT -6
Good grief, Fred! Well I can't say my thinking has changed much. And I also remember you telling me that Crazy Horse had plenty of time to do as I suspect he did. And I do think an officer fell somewhere around MTC. Maybe not Tom, but somebody important. It comes up over and over again in the telling.
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Post by Dark Cloud on Dec 17, 2010 19:22:54 GMT -6
1. "Oh bull crap, Richard. Intertribal warfare was about territory; territory needed to hunt and survive. When one tribe pushed another, skirmishes usually decided the issue. Wholesale slaughter was rare for the practical reason that no one wanted to risk annihilation."
Indians fought for many reasons. Horses, women, boredom, need to prove themselves. Your summation might be true, but what is the solid basis for that exclusive description of Indian warfare? You think the Crow abandoned the Black Hills with a few skirmishes? You think the Sioux left Wisconsin and Minnesota because they lost a few skirmishes to the Ojibway, which mandated they become a horse culture and forget the forest of the past centuries?
But they suddenly snap to with a Last Stand of Our Culture mentality for the Powder River country and Black Hills against the whites? Only then, eh?
2. "Fighting for their way of life" seems to be an exculpatory explanation that has PC value solely because of its common use, as here. But everyone, no matter how good or evil, can be said to be fighting for their way of life, from the Nazis to the KKK. The Japanese fought for their way of life. Does that excuse them? Were the women polled for their views? Or just the great warrior clique, who at death become near gods and worshiped to this day at shrines.
3. "What about Red Cloud, Spotted Tail, Black Kettle just off the top of my head? They did just exactly that." Really? Which of them was willing to step down in power on behalf of their people until forced to? Wasn't Spotted Tail a creature of the whites, a proto-Quisling to be in charge instead of less malleable types.
4. "And yet Sitting Bull and Crazy Horse came in rather than let their people die." Nonsense. SB kept people freezing and starving after long treks instead of somewhat better chances on the rez. CH as well. As the smoke started blowing in the opposite direction, they surrendered while they still had the power to do so and they still were in charge of their groups. CH, in fact, was arrested and held by people who turned against him. Years later, so was SB.
5. "This is conjecture and opinion for the sake of emphasis. Very unlike you."
It is not conjecture that what we know of the Sioux and virtually all Indians is due to the record keeping of the whites, not the supposed oral histories for which so much is claimed around the world. We know the Indians had slaves and treated prisoners as they wished, including institutional torture. The Rees were not impressed with the compassion of the Sioux, nor the Pawnee, nor those who fell to the Comanche or Apache.
None of this excuses the hypocrisy, stupidity, and cruelty of our government and various whites, but just because we won does not elevate them to a moral superiority.
The Indians who may have had the most beneficial vision were Metacom and Wamsutta, Osceola, Tecumseh, and maybe some of the chiefs you mention towards the end, as well as some others, but the problem is that their supposed sayings and writings seem awfully derived from established templates and may be constructions.
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Post by fred on Dec 17, 2010 19:50:19 GMT -6
And I do think an officer fell somewhere around MTC. Maybe not Tom, but somebody important. It comes up over and over again in the telling. Well, I am willing to concede on that point, but I believe it was Algernon Smith and I do not know how badly he may have been hurt. Logic tells me it was a fairly serious wound, though maybe incapacitating immediately. Smith fit the description-- in what he wore. Plus, I believe very strongly that E and F were at the ford, along with HQ, and that E Company acted as a screen, dismounting-- at least partially-- and deploying along the river's edge. It would have made no sense for Custer himself to get that close to the river and I also believe it made extremely good tactical sense for Custer to advance toward the ford along the ridge-line, sending Smith back into MTC to act as something of flank protection. There were Indians on the east side of the river, though like at Ford B, not very many. Then of course, there were Wolf Tooth and Big Foot, but heaven only knows where, precisely. There is a bluff back 50 or 100 yards or so from the water and I believe that is where Custer viewed whatever he viewed in the valley and it was from that point that he determined to continue north to seek a crossing. That was his "land-Rubicon." The business with Smith is further reinforced-- in my opinion-- by his body's location atop LSH rather than with his command in and around Deep Ravine. I believe Smith's men arrived at the ford around 2:58 and by the time Custer managed to get to LSH, it was in the vicinity of 4:13, plenty of time for a debilitating wound to wreak its havoc. Anyway, your work on that village has stood the test of time for me and like I said, there is nothing better out there, printed, posted, or verbalized. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by clw on Dec 17, 2010 20:25:05 GMT -6
Oh bull crap, Richard. Intertribal warfare was about territory; territory needed to hunt and survive. When one tribe pushed another, skirmishes usually decided the issue. Wholesale slaughter was rare for the practical reason that no one wanted to risk annihilation."
Indians fought for many reasons. Horses, women, boredom, need to prove themselves. Your summation might be true, but what is the solid basis for that exclusive description of Indian warfare? You think the Crow abandoned the Black Hills with a few skirmishes? You think the Sioux left Wisconsin and Minnesota because they lost a few skirmishes to the Ojibway, which mandated they become a horse culture and forget the forest of the past centuries?
But they suddenly snap to with a Last Stand of Our Culture mentality for the Powder River country and Black Hills against the whites? Only then, eh?
It is a overblown, very convient excuse to say the NDN was just as greedy and hypocritical and agressive as we were. It simply isn't true and you'll never convince me otherwise. So there.
2. "Fighting for their way of life" seems to be an exculpatory explanation that has PC value solely because of its common use, as here. But everyone, no matter how good or evil, can be said to be fighting for their way of life, from the Nazis to the KKK. The Japanese fought for their way of life. Does that excuse them? Were the women polled for their views? Or just the great warrior clique, who at death become near gods and worshiped to this day at shrines.
I really hate it wwhen your right. But your way of saying it is overdone. The women played a BIG part in what happened and had much more power than you are willing to consider. 3. "What about Red Cloud, Spotted Tail, Black Kettle just off the top of my head? They did just exactly that." Really? Which of them was willing to step down in power on behalf of their people until forced to? Wasn't Spotted Tail a creature of the whites, a proto-Quisling to be in charge instead of less malleable types.
Let's just take Spotted Tail for instance. His entire family was killed at the Battle of Blue something, somthing --with Connor -- I'm too mad* to stop and look it up). Soon after he traveled east and saw what was behind these white folks. He was pragmatic enough early on to try desperately to find a way, well, out for his people. As a result he ended up disliked by both sides. Figures.
4. "And yet Sitting Bull and Crazy Horse came in rather than let their people die." Nonsense. SB kept people freezing and starving after long treks instead of somewhat better chances on the rez. CH as well. As the smoke started blowing in the opposite direction, they surrendered while they still had the power to do so and they still were in charge of their groups. CH, in fact, was arrested and held by people who turned against him. Years later, so was SB.
Stop changing the argument. You said, ...having to admit they lost as warriors. God forbid a man should admit failure. Better he and his family die to avoid such shame They admitted failure. Their families didn't die. Period.
5. "This is conjecture and opinion for the sake of emphasis. Very unlike you."
It is not conjecture that what we know of the Sioux and virtually all Indians is due to the record keeping of the whites, not the supposed oral histories for which so much is claimed around the world.
You are a logical man. Yet you chose to believe a history written by a conqueror? We simply have to let the oral history carry SOME weight if we're to have a balanced view. None of this excuses the hypocrisy, stupidity, and cruelty of our government and various whites, but just because we won does not elevate them to a moral superiority.
Well, yeah. No argument there.
The Indians who may have had the most beneficial vision were Metacom and Wamsutta, Osceola, Tecumseh, and maybe some of the chiefs you mention towards the end, as well as some others, but the problem is that their supposed sayings and writings seem awfully derived from established templates and may be constructions.
They may be constructions. Or they may not.
*not mad, exercised is a better word.
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