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Post by Dark Cloud on Dec 19, 2010 18:34:59 GMT -6
In point of fact neither Custer nor the scouts - white or red - could actually see the village with or without glasses till they arrived at the LBH bluffs, because it's blocked to sight.
They could see the huge herd and dust and smoke, indicating a large camp or several smaller ones in the neighborhood, but that doesn't mean the village couldn't be south or somewhere downriver than where it turned out to be, or divided up on both sides of the river for example. And again, fifteen years after the event things begin to fade, which is why it's best to restrict oneself to claims nearer the time of the battle.
In any case, in 1876 Herendeen, as Hunkpapa points out, totally supports Benteen by recalling Custer saying he couldn't see the village, so Benteen didn't lie about it and renders that position weird.
Anyone caring to evaluate Hunkpapa's position is invited to review his posts on the 'honor' thread and elsewhere. It's still up. Forever. He won't encourage that. And of course, I must be AZ's shill, because two people could not agree outside Hunkpapa's position. AZ will be thrilled, no doubt, as his dream is to be saddled with my warm and winning personality at his side on these boards and having to defend it. For that alone, I apologize. And nothing else whatever.
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Post by clw on Dec 19, 2010 18:35:51 GMT -6
Thank you Billy! Merry Christmas to you too.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Dec 20, 2010 6:55:44 GMT -6
HP
First I agree with DC and that the big village was not visible. We have some places where you can see large herd of elk (back when we had them, 1980s) that you could seem them by color an movement. My first view in 1979 I told the veteran officer that I could not see them. There were thousands and the whole hill east of Apache Maid was covered with elk. Once I understood that they didn't look like elk and the hill was moving in color change I could see them.
So my view is based up these following items that I have determined as fact but anyone is free to make their own determination:
Terry ordered Custer to approach from the south
Terry ordered Custer not to let them escape to the south
Large number of ponies indicates a large number of Indians
Indians were more likely to run than stand and fight
Custer was willing to do either
So my opinion of the village location for Custer was plus or minus several miles to include more south.
If Custer believes it is possible that the Indians are running south toward and past Reno Creek before they can arrive there then sending Benteen to approach further south seems logical to me.
If Custer believes the big village is in an exact location 2 miles north of Reno Creek and hasn't enough time to pack up and leave then the whole regiment should move quickly down Reno Creek.
What we know is that Custer sent Benteen to the left for a purpose and the terrain and unfolding events made it a useless mission in hindsight only.
That being said Custer was a competent officer and did not waste Benteen's battalion in Custer's move to the river. If Custer knew the village location and his scouts saw running Indians indicating the big village location then I believe he would have done two things. First send Reno as he did and seconly at the same time recall Benteen to support Reno and move the pack train to a safe but supporting location.
There is no indication that he sent a message to Benteen or the pack train from Reno Creek. He does not recall Benteen until much later. The pack train could have been easily been told to cross the river or follow Custer from the bottom of Reno Creek. It didn't happen.
So until someone convinces me that Custer was incompetent or that my fact finding is inaccurate then "that's my story and I'm sticking to it."
AZ Ranger
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Post by AZ Ranger on Dec 20, 2010 7:08:26 GMT -6
Once again, your belief that knowledge of the village location made the sending of Benteen to the left by Custer a poor decision needs expansion.HP If I didn't make my current theory clear then I am sorry. I believe that Custer did not believe the intel and did not believe he knew the location of the village precisely. Therefore sending Benteen to left makes perfect sense to me. It would only not make sense if he knew there was no chance for Benteen to see the village with it being located 2 miles north of Reno Creek along the LBH. Regards AZ Ranger Thanks for that clarification AZ. As I have stated previously, I believe that the Crow scouts, Bouyer and Reynolds had pinpointed the village location fairly accurately for Custer. That being so, his choices approaching that location would have been limited, as described by the late Jay Smith in his June 1989 Research Review article concerning attacking an Indian village, "Cavalry troops on the offense had two options for tactics. The first was called a penetration...the tactic of penetration did not work against Indians. The more conventional tactic employed in Indian fighting was the envelopment. This was executed by the use of a holding force which engaged the enemy while other parts of the command swung to right or left and hit him in the rear. The tactic was most effective in capturing villages. Few warriors were killed, since they would not fight on two fronts at the same time; rather, they would run. " It is the final few words in that last sentence which are consistently overlooked when blaming Custer in hindsight, yet Jay Smith's view is supported by men who were actually there:- Edgerly's 1881 Statement in Custer Myth page 219 - "...we would press on as quickly as we could and attack them in the village if possible. The idea was that the Indians would not stand against a whole regiment of cavalry, and that as soon as they learned of our advance they would try to get away from us." and, "He ordered Major Reno to move straight down the valley to the Indian village and attack, and he would be supported. He ordered Colonel Benteen to move off toward the left, at an angle of about forty-five degrees from Reno's courseand to attack any Indians he could find. The idea was that the Indians would run either to the right or left." Edgerly to Camp, Custer in 76 page 53 - Edgerly says that when the regiment left mouth of Rosebud no one expected the Indians would make a stand anywhere and fight...Nobody thought any hard fighting would take place...Custer's idea was that Indians would scatter and run in all directions. Hence he sent Benteen to the southwest." Godfrey in 'Custer's Last Battle' - "In all our previous experiences, when the immediate presence of the troops was once known to them, the warriors swarmed to the attack, and resorted to all kinds of ruses to mislead the troops, to delay the advance toward the camp or village, while the squaws and children secured what personal effects they could, drove off the pony herd, and by flight put themselves beyond danger, and then scattering made successful pursuit next to impossible." Terry to Sheridan December 28th 1875 - "Such an operation must, of course, be conducted with secrecy and rapidity, for it would not be possible for cavalry to follow the Indians for any considerable distance, should they receive notice of the approach of troops and seek safety in dispersion and flight." When Custer made his decisions he made them based on the 1876 military view that Indians did not stand and fight, but scattered and fled at the approach of a military column. At the Divide he deployed his forces accordingly in the knowledge that his subordinates knew the general location of the big village so that Benteen did not need to see it to move in its direction. Benteen was given his orders which he testified to violating. It is hardly just to point the finger of blame at Custer because Benteen did not carry out his mission. The Captain's distortion of his part in the events at the LBH have blinded many people over the years, but there is ample evidence available for us to ensure that we don't follow suit. Sincerely, Hunk These examples support my position that Indians were in the valley at the end of the tracks they were following and could be right or left as Edgerly's states. The location is two miles away from the Reno Creek crossing so when they state right or left it not from the village rather it is approach they are taking from the point where Benteen is sent to the left. The Indians could run for a mile south of the village and still not be to the left of Reno Creek. So right or left does not seem to me and indication of an exact village location. I appreciated your discussion HP it helps in forming an opinion. Regards AZ Ranger
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Post by AZ Ranger on Dec 20, 2010 7:31:41 GMT -6
Firstly, your reference to Godfrey's slight hearing impediment and the extract you cite from the quote I gave. Unless I am misrepresenting you, you seem to be implying that it was Godfrey who misheard the phrase you have cited. If you re-read the whole passage I quoted I think you will see that Godfrey is saying that he is surprised that Benteen and Reno testified "That Custer expressed a disbelief in the near proximity of any village whatever at that time." No doubt you will correct me if I have misunderstood because if I am right, then the opposite view is true, i.e. Custer did believe in the near proximity of the village at that time and the following comments endorse that belief:-
I think that if Godfrey stated he heard Benteen or Reno state that Custer did not think the village existed anywhere rather than "there", an exact location, in Reno's and Benteen's testimony then I think Godfrey is mistaken. Does Godfrey state how he formed his opinion. Is he quoting from the RCOI or from what someone told him they stated?
I have always believed that at the end of the tracks there were Indians in close proximity along the LBH and the reason for Custer's movement toward the LBH. The approach and actions indicate to me that Custer did not know whether contact would be made south or north (right or left) of the junction of the LBH and the drainage Custer where was following the tracks and trail of large numbers of Indians.
AZ Ranger
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Post by "Hunk" Papa on Dec 22, 2010 15:39:00 GMT -6
In point of fact neither Custer nor the scouts - white or red - could actually see the village with or without glasses till they arrived at the LBH bluffs, because it's blocked to sight. They could see the huge herd and dust and smoke, indicating a large camp or several smaller ones in the neighborhood, but that doesn't mean the village couldn't be south or somewhere downriver than where it turned out to be, or divided up on both sides of the river for example. And again, fifteen years after the event things begin to fade, which is why it's best to restrict oneself to claims nearer the time of the battle. In any case, in 1876 Herendeen, as Hunkpapa points out, totally supports Benteen by recalling Custer saying he couldn't see the village, so Benteen didn't lie about it and renders that position weird. Anyone caring to evaluate Hunkpapa's position is invited to review his posts on the 'honor' thread and elsewhere. It's still up. Forever. He won't encourage that. And of course, I must be AZ's shill, because two people could not agree outside Hunkpapa's position. AZ will be thrilled, no doubt, as his dream is to be saddled with my warm and winning personality at his side on these boards and having to defend it. For that alone, I apologize. And nothing else whatever. DaiCey dear girl, you are getting hysterical. If you can't get the 'H' thread out of your system you will do yourself some damage. Please take a valium and lie down in a dark room and repeat the mantra, "Goodwill to all men, goodwill to all men" until peace descends upon you. Merry Christmas my little cherub.
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Post by "Hunk" Papa on Dec 22, 2010 16:04:07 GMT -6
HP First I agree with DC and that the big village was not visible. We have some places where you can see large herd of elk (back when we had them, 1980s) that you could seem them by color an movement. My first view in 1979 I told the veteran officer that I could not see them. There were thousands and the whole hill east of Apache Maid was covered with elk. Once I understood that they didn't look like elk and the hill was moving in color change I could see them. So my view is based up these following items that I have determined as fact but anyone is free to make their own determination: Terry ordered Custer to approach from the south Terry ordered Custer not to let them escape to the south Large number of ponies indicates a large number of Indians Indians were more likely to run than stand and fight Custer was willing to do either So my opinion of the village location for Custer was plus or minus several miles to include more south. If Custer believes it is possible that the Indians are running south toward and past Reno Creek before they can arrive there then sending Benteen to approach further south seems logical to me. If Custer believes the big village is in an exact location 2 miles north of Reno Creek and hasn't enough time to pack up and leave then the whole regiment should move quickly down Reno Creek. What we know is that Custer sent Benteen to the left for a purpose and the terrain and unfolding events made it a useless mission in hindsight only. That being said Custer was a competent officer and did not waste Benteen's battalion in Custer's move to the river. If Custer knew the village location and his scouts saw running Indians indicating the big village location then I believe he would have done two things. First send Reno as he did and seconly at the same time recall Benteen to support Reno and move the pack train to a safe but supporting location. There is no indication that he sent a message to Benteen or the pack train from Reno Creek. He does not recall Benteen until much later. The pack train could have been easily been told to cross the river or follow Custer from the bottom of Reno Creek. It didn't happen. So until someone convinces me that Custer was incompetent or that my fact finding is inaccurate then "that's my story and I'm sticking to it." AZ Ranger Having seen the panorama from the Crow's Nest myself under the guidance of Jim Court, I am aware that the village itself could not be seen from there. Yet the Crows, Mitch Bouyer and Charley Reynolds would have known that the smoke allied to nearby pony herds would locate the main body of Indians within close proximity as the warriors would alway want their mounts relatively near, firstly in case of any need for action and secondly to keep them from being stolen. It is my belief that the above mentioned scouts would have been able to tell Custer more or less where to expect the main body of Indians to be. Now you think that Custer would not have sent Bentee to the left if he had known the approximate location of the village. I think otherwise because of the flight factor. I agree that Custer could not have known the exact site of the village but in knowing within a mile or two where it was likely to be, knowledge enhanced by the observations of Hairy Moccasin when that Crow scout was sent forward to gain more intel well prior to the Divide departure, he could base his tactics with reasonable certainty. My view is still that Custere was attempting the often used envelopment as his battle plan and he did not recall Benteen as testified to by the Captain himself. In my opinion once he realised that Benteen was behind him he sent an order via Martin. Our opinions on these matters differ fundamentally so I doubt we shall agree, but I am sure we can agree to disagree. Sincerely, "Hunk" Papa
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Post by "Hunk" Papa on Dec 22, 2010 16:23:37 GMT -6
These examples support my position that Indians were in the valley at the end of the tracks they were following and could be right or left as Edgerly's states. The location is two miles away from the Reno Creek crossing so when they state right or left it not from the village rather it is approach they are taking from the point where Benteen is sent to the left. The Indians could run for a mile south of the village and still not be to the left of Reno Creek. So right or left does not seem to me and indication of an exact village location. I appreciated your discussion HP it helps in forming an opinion. Regards AZ Ranger AZ, I used the Edgerly quote to back up my reference to Jay Smith's words, "they would run" and not in any way to pinpoint the location of the village. Edgerly's "right" and "left" are also only descriptions of how the Indians were expected to run in the face of Custer's approach. My other quote's in that post were also meant to emphasise the army's concern about the anticipated scattering of the enemy. Thanks for your kind comment and I agree that civilised debate is the way to either cement or reconsider ones opinions. Sincerely, "Hunk" Papa
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Post by "Hunk" Papa on Dec 22, 2010 16:51:35 GMT -6
I think that if Godfrey stated he heard Benteen or Reno state that Custer did not think the village existed anywhere rather than "there", an exact location, in Reno's and Benteen's testimony then I think Godfrey is mistaken. Does Godfrey state how he formed his opinion. Is he quoting from the RCOI or from what someone told him they stated? I have always believed that at the end of the tracks there were Indians in close proximity along the LBH and the reason for Custer's movement toward the LBH. The approach and actions indicate to me that Custer did not know whether contact would be made south or north (right or left) of the junction of the LBH and the drainage Custer where was following the tracks and trail of large numbers of Indians. AZ Ranger Az, I think we are at cross purposes here. What Godfrey said, put in simple terms, was that at the relevant officers' call, Custer had said the Indian village was in close proximity and that he, Godfrey, was very surprised that Reno and Benteen testified otherwise at the RCOI. Personally, I don't think that Custer expected contact in the sense of a battle. It is my opinion that right up to his move north from MTC he still expected flight and Benteen had been sent left to prevent flight in that direction. I cannot see how we can fault Custer for decisions he made based on the innate belief at the time that Indians were not only inferior as human beings, but afraid to stand and fight a regiment of cavalry. I firmly believe that we cannot make assumptions of his thinking using 21st century knowledge applied to a 19th century period of history. Every good wish for an enjoyable Christmas and a good 2011. Sincerely, "Hunk" Papa
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Post by "Hunk" Papa on Dec 22, 2010 16:55:18 GMT -6
Hunk, you and AZ keep on discussing your differences. DC, while I love him like a nuisance scab on my butt, only acts to insert sticks through moving bicycle wheels. Be good and Merry Christmas, Billy Thanks Billy and advice noted. Fortunately I no longer ride a bicycle. I prefer putting a spoke in someone else's wheel! Happy holidays to you too. Hunk
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Post by AZ Ranger on Dec 23, 2010 6:42:10 GMT -6
HP I don't think there is much difference in what you say and what I think happened. I do not believe that Benteen or Reno thought there were no Indians on the LBH nor did they think Custer thought there was no Indians.
The bottomline driving them if I had to guess is that Custer did not have enough intel to keep the 7th together as they marched down Reno Creek. That was the beginning of the end when encountering a concentrated "large village" willing to fight.
Their comments are hindsight and rightfully so. Let's not make the same mistakes again. Custer made his choices from available intel.
Benteen movement to the left can best be summed up in my opinion by Godfrey's field notes:
--After wandering among the hills without any probability of accomplishing anything we went into the valley
Without a doubt in my current opinion if Custer knew that a big village was located two miles north or to the right he would have followed Benteen's suggestion and kept them together to at least to where Reno was sent to the advance.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Dec 23, 2010 7:07:49 GMT -6
Here is Reno's testimony
He said the Indian scouts had reported there was a large Indian village in view from the top of the mountain. He did not believe such himself, as he had looked with his glass. Again it is accurate for what you could see from the Crow's Nest.
The ponies and smoke are indicators of Indians but do not pin point location or prove a single large village as compared to a large number of strung out smaller villages north and south of Reno Creek.
So again I don't see that they are stating there is no Indians being reported by Custer. The testimony only states that a large village could not be seen. Which is the truth and undisputed. You can not see the actual village site from the Crows Nest.
I don't know the rules of a court of inquiry but wonder if witnesses are allowed to sit and listen to other witness testimony?
AZ Ranger
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Post by AZ Ranger on Dec 23, 2010 7:35:35 GMT -6
HP After riding horseback in the Benteen area and driving and looking at Reno Creek, I believe it would not be a wise decision to send someone in Benteen's direction if the intent was to stop Indians moving from a village and heading south along the LBH. If the Indians could not be blocked by Reno from heading south along the LBH how could Benteen be of any assistance from no name creek?
Reno was the only troops that crossed the river and could prevent a southern movement. So if Indians were south of Reno when he crossed the LBH where would you locate Benteen's location in the hills. I would suggest that if they were heading south from the big village Custer could catch them from behind quicker than Benteen could reach the river in the direction he was heading.
Again lack of terrain recon was problem. Benteen was on a useless mission if a known large village was located on the LBH two miles north of Reno Creek.
That would also mean the Indians were packed up since they would have moved two miles. How many times did they catch Indians that were packed up and running away?
The quickest route for Benteen would have been to cross over to SFRC but he still ends up at Ford A and more wear on the horses crossing that steep ridge between no name and SFRC.
Regards
AZ Ranger
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Post by montrose on Dec 23, 2010 8:15:15 GMT -6
Steve,
I have been wrestling with your theory that Custer was unsure whether the Indians were upstream or downstream from Ford A. It certainly puts the Benteen scout in a very different light.
I still think the preponderance of evidence available to Custer pointed north. Further the terrain itself and advice from his guides should also have pointed to the Benteen scout being a hard trip to nowhere.
I still believe the Benteen scout was over eagerness on the part of GAC. He should have continued to follow the trail to the river crossing, and then determined if Indians went north or south.
The Indians were heading downstream. If they backtracked, they would head into already foraged out land. Custer was close enough that he would catch them.
In 1873 the much smaller enemy village avoided Custer by crossing the Yellowstone and defeating Custer's pursuit in a delaying action. At LBH there was no blocking terrain feature to hinder a pursuit. The Indians could not get their village away without a fight.
Custer just needed patience, a quality that was always in short supply in the Custer clan.
Scout caveat. I have read posts that create the impression that scouts were a human GPS, with overhead imagery. Scouts would know the normally traveled trails, fords, and campsites. Their knowledge of poor terrain would be weak, since most would never have been in such bad terrain.
Look at all the terminology we have for terrain in and around LBH. There is no way any scout had such detailed knowledge of local terrain features.
Hunk,
I do not believe we are applying modern standards to a tactical evaluation of LBH. Issues on CUster's tactics were raised by his contemporaries, starting within days of the battle. The major arguments are the same we are discussing here:
1. GAC was too eager.
2. Major decisions were made before effective reconnaissance had been conducted (AKA Intelligence Preparation of the Battlefield (IPB).
3. The 7th was scattered into too many small parts, outside of mutually supporting distance of each other. The led to defeat in detail.
By the way, my wife is English and the kids are dual citizens. So I have to deal with fruitcake and Boxing Day.
Merry Christmas.
William
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Post by "Hunk" Papa on Dec 23, 2010 16:36:45 GMT -6
Here is Reno's testimony He said the Indian scouts had reported there was a large Indian village in view from the top of the mountain. He did not believe such himself, as he had looked with his glass.Again it is accurate for what you could see from the Crow's Nest. The ponies and smoke are indicators of Indians but do not pin point location or prove a single large village as compared to a large number of strung out smaller villages north and south of Reno Creek. So again I don't see that they are stating there is no Indians being reported by Custer. The testimony only states that a large village could not be seen. Which is the truth and undisputed. You can not see the actual village site from the Crows Nest. I don't know the rules of a court of inquiry but wonder if witnesses are allowed to sit and listen to other witness testimony? AZ Ranger AZ, Reno's statement that Custer "did not believe so himself" is directly contradictory to what Godfrey heard. The basic question in this context as I see it, is not whether Custer saw the signs himself but whether he believed that his scouts had seen them. From the actions he took once he believed the command had been spotted, I cannot understand why anyone would think otherwise than he accepted there was a target to attack in the LBH valley. Whilst Reno's testimony is accurate in stating that a large village could not be seen from the Crow's Nest, we must not lose sight of the fact that, unlike us, neither Reno nor Benteen saw the view from the Crow's Nest. Their testimony was based purely on what they said Custer had stated at the officers' call. Without going up the Crow's Nest to see for themselves their testimony can only be hearsay and hearsay which is negated by Godfrey. With family arriving tomorrow for the Christmas break, I will not be able to continue this until next week, so please bear with me if your response does not get a quick reply from me. Please enjoy your own holiday festivities. Hunk
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