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Post by wild on Mar 30, 2012 9:55:26 GMT -6
The old man's name was Big Foot.For shame Richard how could you ever forget?
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Post by Dark Cloud on Mar 30, 2012 10:24:16 GMT -6
Please beware artificial glurge, as I suspect that supposed poem found on the corpse of a Vietnam soldier is. It's the sort of thing grieving mothers and the public want to read, and clerics want the public to believe, and while it certainly could be true, it doesn't mean the kid wrote it. How could we know his age but not his name? For what reason would that be withheld? Suspect, as with virtually all the Wise Vietnam Veteran tales, these are fiction. No proof, gut.
Second, while the Wounded Knee horror can hardly be excused, it is not to be compared to the Holocaust. Nothing is, really. That's as absurd as comparing anything that happened to the Irish to the Holocaust, which Wild wishes to do and has done in the past. If this can be called genocide than anything can, and he needs a ridiculously low bar to include the Irish. That's his motivation, as it was for everyone who saw the potential for the new word to help themselves politically. The word was constructed to describe that worse than mass murder and grand land theft.
Third, the elements of Poles who scream 'betrayal' at the French and English seem to feel that their military treaty demanded the French and English risk their own national existence to save the artificial Poland of Versailles creation under the absurdly unexpected circumstances that arose in 1939. England went to war unprepared and France as well, and that was about all they were able to do. Wild here tries to establish how awful England and France were to the Poles, who were not united and on the verge of civil war, during the horrifying time went fascism and communism united against Poland and everyone else. People forget that after France fell England alone fought Hitler, then supported by his ally the Soviet Union.
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Post by clw on Mar 30, 2012 11:12:59 GMT -6
Second, while the Wounded Knee horror can hardly be excused, it is not to be compared to the Holocaust. Nothing is, really. That's as absurd as comparing anything that happened to the Irish to the Holocaust, which Wild wishes to do and has done in the past. If this can be called genocide than anything can, and he needs a ridiculously low bar to include the Irish. That's his motivation, as it was for everyone who saw the potential for the new word to help themselves politically. The word was constructed to describe that worse than mass murder and grand land theft. That poem simply creates a visualization of Wounded Knee that comes unbidden from the historical photographs. If comparisons to the Holocaust were made, I missed them.
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Post by Dark Cloud on Mar 30, 2012 12:18:18 GMT -6
A poem utilizing a line from Flanders Fields, oddly, ('row on row') about dead Jews lying in the snow is introduced by Wild as reminiscent of Wounded Knee. That's how I made the connection, aided and abetted by a near decade of his postings. Virtually any description of people frozen and dead in the snow would as well. I don't see how that can be avoided.
And it was all discussed back in the day when Wild was trying to get 'genocide' applied to every defeat of the Irish, hampered somewhat by huge birth rates and defeat of the Irish by the Irish as well as English. He wants to indict the US on genocide of the Indians, and latches on the evolving definitions of genocide for this exact political use. The problem is the word was invented to describe the Holocaust, the extent of which was not yet known, in 1944.
It was retroactively applied to the Armenians and then everyone saw its benefits given the rebirth of Israel, and that opened the floodgates. Wild wants to get it applied to the Native Americans so he can apply it to the Irish, which he actually did.
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Post by benteen on Mar 30, 2012 15:13:01 GMT -6
Please beware artificial glurge, as I suspect that supposed poem found on the corpse of a Vietnam soldier is. It's the sort of thing grieving mothers and the public want to read, and clerics want the public to believe, and while it certainly could be true, it doesn't mean the kid wrote it. How could we know his age but not his name? For what reason would that be withheld? Suspect, as with virtually all the Wise Vietnam Veteran tales, these are fiction. No proof, gut. . Dark Cloud, I edited the last part, which I should have done the first time. I have no disagreement with your sentiments, the point is that this is not about any particular soldier or war, it is about all soldiers in all wars. What I am trying to say is that with all our discusions about war and tactics etc we tend to speak in terms of Xs and Os and tend to forget that combat is also personal, that these soldiers are individuals with their own thoughts and feelings. I thought this poem brought that home. Be Well Dan
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Post by Dark Cloud on Mar 30, 2012 16:38:18 GMT -6
And fine, it may well have been true and written by the kid. It's just that we have a huge amount of literature written by soldiers, many combat vets, and there are very few that recall that poem or, for that matter, McCrae's. In type, it recalls the poem Wild oddly offered, written by an ignorant woman and pandering, like McCrae, to those who want the war to go on to victory regardless of cost or, perhaps, till it affects them negatively.
You shouldn't edit anything because of me, for heaven's sake. If I edited posts where I came under fire, I'd have to hire staff.
As history has shown, its not the winner's civvies that need to feel victory, it's the losers' civvies who need to feel defeat and admit it, which doesn't happen till the armed forces admit it. Germany was able to prevent its civvies from connecting their status with defeat of the army and navy, and that's what gave them a leg up for the next one.
That's something else I'd leave to combat vets: is this the sort of thing a combat vet would actually write? Or someone actually going into battle for the first time?
I certainly do not know. But I retain suspicion. For while many civilians want the wars to go on to 'victory', the polls done after the war and during some don't show the same enthusiasm among the soldiers as among Chickenhawks, profiteers, near men, and others for war of longer duration.
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Post by benteen on Mar 31, 2012 16:13:34 GMT -6
And fine, it may well have been true and written by the kid. It's just that we have a huge amount of literature written by soldiers, many combat vets, and there are very few that recall that poem or, for that matter, McCrae's. In type, it recalls the poem Wild oddly offered, written by an ignorant woman and pandering, like McCrae, to those who want the war to go on to victory regardless of cost or, perhaps, till it affects them negatively. You shouldn't edit anything because of me, for heaven's sake. If I edited posts where I came under fire, I'd have to hire staff. As history has shown, its not the winner's civvies that need to feel victory, it's the losers' civvies who need to feel defeat and admit it, which doesn't happen till the armed forces admit it. Germany was able to prevent its civvies from connecting their status with defeat of the army and navy, and that's what gave them a leg up for the next one. That's something else I'd leave to combat vets: is this the sort of thing a combat vet would actually write? Or someone actually going into battle for the first time? I certainly do not know. But I retain suspicion. For while many civilians want the wars to go on to 'victory', the polls done after the war and during some don't show the same enthusiasm among the soldiers as among Chickenhawks, profiteers, near men, and others for war of longer duration. Dark Cloud, Yes I agree that there are few vets that would know this poem, it was something I read on the Internet and it resonated with me. Heck, I don't know if this young man wrote this. I would doubt that many men going into combat are thinking about writing a poem, and even fewer have a pencil and paper to do so, but they could be thinking these thoughts. It just brought home to me that war isn't about bugle calls and flags unfurled and this Glory nonsense, it is about the soldier. But by your post, I think you understand what I am trying to say. Although I dont do it well at times. Be Well Dan
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Post by wild on Mar 31, 2012 20:13:15 GMT -6
Dan It just brought home to me that war isn't about bugle calls and flags unfurled and this Glory nonsense If war came in it's natural wrapping no one would buy it thus it comes gift wrapped with bells and whistles. Regards
Further. How many of the Great War poets were published during the war? Fussell tells how Sasoonn had to be rescued from a situation by a poet friend.The friend got him a stint in a mental hospital.But that's just one. One use of dawn Fussell misses out on is the "shot at dawn" Fussell mentions nothing of the 300+ "other ranks" the officer corps had shot at dawn. There was a fellow by the name of Breaker Morant an officer in the Boer War who was shot at dawn but that was for being over zealous and because he was unfortunate enough to be an Aussie.I think he wrote some great poetry.If I find it I'll post it.
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Post by wild on Apr 1, 2012 2:57:00 GMT -6
His last effort
The Breaker's last poem "Butchered to Make a Dutchman's Holiday" (Cutlack, pp. 175-6):
In prison cell I sadly sit - A d-d crestfallen chappy! And own to you I feel a bit- A little bit - unhappy!
It really ain't the place nor time To reel off rhyming diction- But yet we'll write a final rhyme While waiting cru-ci-fixion!
No matteer what 'end' they decide- Quicklime? or 'b'iling ile? sir! We'll do our best when crucified To finish off in style, sir!
But we bequeath a parting tip For sound advice as such men As come across in transport ship To polish off the Dutchmen!
If you encounter any Boers You really must not loot 'em, And if you wish to leave these shores For pity's sake don't shoot 'em!
And if you'd earn a D.S.O.- Why every British sinner Should know the proper way to go Is: 'Ask the Boer to dinner'!
Let's toss a bumper down our throat Before we pass to Heaven, And toast: 'the trim-set petticoat We leave behind in Devon.
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Post by montrose on Apr 1, 2012 4:47:27 GMT -6
Breaker Morant was executed for murder.
SGT Bales, who is equally "overzealous", won't face the death penalty, but hopefully life in prison.
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Post by wild on Apr 1, 2012 8:38:44 GMT -6
A cause celebre all up there on google.They made a film of the incident back in 1980. Not to be compared with sgt Bales that poor man was sick. One of the Boers who was shot had been caught wearing the uniform of Morant's CO who had been killed in action and allegedly mutilated by the same said Boers.There was also an order that all boers caught wearing British uniform were to be shot. Following the execution the Aussies never allowed their men to face a British court martial again.Thus no Australian was ever shot at dawn. Regards
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Post by benteen on Apr 1, 2012 9:17:07 GMT -6
Richard, I saw that movie, and of course you cant judge history by a movie, but if it was anywhere near accurate, Morant and another soldier were railroaded. Their trail was a farce. A set up.
"Shoot Straight You Bastards"
Be Well Dan
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Post by wild on Apr 1, 2012 10:27:00 GMT -6
"Shoot Straight You Bastards" Yes Dan apparently they refused blind folds.
We had a patriot a Major John McBride.He had fought along side the Boers in an American/Irish commando.On returning to Ireland he took part in the 1916 rebellion and was executed for his troubles.But like the brave Morant refused a blindfold saying "I have looked down the muzzles of too many guns in the South African war to fear death and now please carry out your sentence." The Irish Poet WB Yeats had the hots for his wife Maude Gonne.Maud and the major had gone through a nasty devorce and she had bad mouthed him.Yeats wrote tne following lines as a sort of backhanded compliment to him.
"This other man I had dreamed A drunken, vain-glorious lout. He had done most bitter wrong To some who are near my heart, Yet I number him in the song; He, too, has resigned his part In the casual comedy; He, too, has been changed in his turn, Transformed utterly: A terrible beauty is born."
Regards
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Post by Dark Cloud on Apr 1, 2012 11:05:25 GMT -6
Quite a few of what we now call Great War poets were published during and before the war, Sassoon and Graves among them. Sassoon was a highly decorated officer and in shell shock. Graves claimed he got him sent up for mental therapy after Sassoon refused to fight any more announced in the papers. This doesn't sound important now, because we don't realize how much bigger a deal poets were back then, and how much better they sold and were read. Bales had been in combat too long and lost it. I'm surprised there aren't more like that in every army. What infuriates about these glurge poems is that I don't think they resonate with combat vets or were written by them. And there are many instances of entire books of supposed 'letters to the editors' and 'letters home from soldiers overseas' that were complete fabrications written for morale, supposedly, by governments and by the military in wars of the 20th century. Big named writers were employed to compose them. They were designed to calm parents and the citizenry that their sons were not becoming what they actually were and things would be just like before when they returned. Really. I think it distorts history to leave stuff like that as 'true.' Just like the female soldier caught by the Iraqis had her tale exaggerated to the point of grotesqueness. And just about all the Wise Vietnam Veteran stories are nonsense as well. I don't know how many, as sometimes their poems, written during the war, only appeared after. Notice Wild turns it all to be about Ireland. He's Irish today. If the British win a battle or display bravery in discussion, he'll be back under the Union Jack. The Easter Rising featured IRA during the year of Jutland and the Somme negotiating with the Germans for arms and providing a western flank for the Kaiser against England. It would be wondrous if every heroic one liner was not accepted at face value. Please review: www.youtube.com/watch?v=64Xr6Cfo9XY
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Post by benteen on Apr 1, 2012 12:13:17 GMT -6
Dark Cloud,
You posted that once before, and it is just as hilarious this time as it was then. Good job.
Be Well Dan
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