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Post by Dark Cloud on Mar 28, 2012 10:10:22 GMT -6
If this was written in a Gulag, that's in Siberia. If written for Polish soldiers, why did they write rhyme in English?
Why, if in Siberia after (it must be assumed) the Soviets sent them there, would they write Polish soldiers at all? And who were the writers? What's the source?
Could have been worse and dreaming of Irish soldiers, with the crepe around the arm for Hitler.
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Post by wild on Mar 28, 2012 13:48:25 GMT -6
Images of Wounded Knee?
Have you seen, in fields of snow, frozen Jews, row on row? Blue marble forms lying, not breathing, not dying.
Somewhere a flicker of a frozen soul - glint of fish in an icy swell. All brood. Speech and silence are one. Night snow encases the sun.
A smile glows immobile from a rose lip's chill. Baby and mother, side by side. Odd that her nipple's dried.
Fist, fixed in ice, of a naked old man: the power's undone in his hand. I've sampled death in all guises. Nothing surprises.
Yet a frost in July in this heat - a crazy assault in the street. I and blue carrion, face to face. Frozen Jews in a snowy space.
Marble shrouds my skin. Words ebb. Light grows thin. I'm frozen, I'm rooted in place like the naked old man enfeebled by ice
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Post by wild on Mar 29, 2012 1:36:55 GMT -6
I have just finished reading Bloodlands after having been side tracked by Mr Fussell and his rule of three. Bloodlands deals with the ethnic engineering carried out in central Europe by Hitler and Stalin in the 30s and 40s.This process featured extermination,starvation and transportation.The death toll alone was upward of 14 million people exclusive of war casualties. Poland is perhaps the greatest victim having endured first Stalin then Hitler then Stalin again. The book lifts the lid on the double betrayal of Poland.First by Britian and France in 39 and then by the US and Britian in 43.Explaining how in 39 Britian and France failed to attack as agreed in the military pact.It had been determined that Poland could hold out for two weeks,sufficent time to allow for the Allies to mount an attack on Germany.Poland in fact held out for 5 weeks but the allies with 120 divisions in the field failed to attack the 25 German divisions in the West. The second betrayal was in 43 when the" big three" redrew the borders of Europe handing Poland over to the tender mercies of Uncle Joe.This was done without the knowledge of the Poles who had over 250000 troops fighting alongside the allies.So heros of the battle of Britian,North africa,victors at Monte Cassino,Rear guard at Arhnem were sold out to the butcher of Katyn. The redrawing of the borders involved driving 8 million Germans out of Prussia and East Germany and a like number of Poles out of East Poland.Ethnic cleansing on a grand scale.Another 2 million Germans were driven out of the Sudetenland. But the ethnic engineering also included extermination of the intelligentsia and those who Joe considered troublesome. When viewed against this soccial disruption the setting up of Israel was penny ante stuff. Britian was of course an empire well used to such forced social manipulation.One would have imagined that the US would have balked at such inhumanity. The book is a great read covering an area which has been airbrushed out of Western memory.Adds greatly to understanding present day East/West dynamics.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Mar 29, 2012 3:52:44 GMT -6
Richard do you get the BBC program ‘’Question Time’’ over on your side of the Irish Sea, there was a guy on the show called David Starkey who said that the French have been trying to airbrush the liberation of France in WW2 out of their history for years, he says they were embarrassed over the affair,
His words from the show:
You will remember Britain and America liberated France. What thanks did we get from them? The French have spent the last 40 years trying to obliterate the shame by doing everything they can to damage Britain and America.’ He went on: ‘People don’t like being freed, they mistake liberators for conquerors.
I don’t think they are trying to do (if this guy was telling the truth) this because we were involved, or on the other hand maybe they are. Ian.
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Post by wild on Mar 29, 2012 6:14:06 GMT -6
Ian, With the baggage the French have from Trafalgar and Waterloo the idea of being liberated by the British is I imagine hard to bear. You know that Churchill offered them joint sovereignty but they refused and went for the Vichy arrangement. Enjoy the good weather
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Post by fred on Mar 29, 2012 6:18:40 GMT -6
It had been determined that Poland could hold out for two weeks,sufficent time to allow for the Allies to mount an attack on Germany.Poland in fact held out for 5 weeks but the allies with 120 divisions in the field failed to attack the 25 German divisions in the West. This is a crock of manure... and it is comments like this that make me question the entire contents of revisionist history, regardless of how accurate the author's other points may be. It is this type of thing I call "Rini-ism": a theory justification by distorting facts or taking things out of context. Every single source for 70 years says the same thing: Western powers-- read, Britain and France-- believed the Poles could hold out, unaided, over the autumn and winter. Writings of the time said the same thing. It is crap like this that drives me wild: it is the complete underestimating of our enemies just to satisfy revisionism. Suddenly the Germans were inept because their adversary was weak, and by throwing out the "two week" theory, the Germans' inability to subdue the blockheaded Polish theory of modern warfare-- as well as the others'-- renders them equal buffoons. The fact remains, despite crappy tanks and a 25% breakdown/destruction rate, German military theory completely shocked the incompetent West... and East. It is no different today. It nauseates me when I hear all these moronic politicians and Wall Street imbeciles extolling the inordinate power of the "greatest military in the history of the world," a military that couldn't win in Iraq and is in the process of running from Afghanistan. We supposedly "won" in Iraq because of the so-called "surge," but that is as much of a smokescreen as Custer saw in his final moments. If the Sunni warlords hadn't shifted sides when they did, the surge would have fallen flat on its face. Tommy Franks completely bungled Afghanistan and that fool, McChrystal, needed to be relieved. We can't control our troops-- Abu Ghraib, for example; SGT Bales for another; Jessica Lynch... and on and on-- because we are so morally bankrupt we need to send the same men back for multiple tours, ruining them forever, and we farm out military missions to mercenaries we bankroll under a new name: contractors. The army in its basic tactics and movements looks like a bunch of boy scouts on patrol, and the big hoopla about Patraeus and his glossy, hi-tech, over-marketed counterinsurgency manual-- something that looked like the Special Forces manuals of the 1960s-- is a fraud. I notice Obama yanked his ass out of Afghanistan before that quagmire ruined another reputation. Iraq and Afghanistan are Vietnam, only in drag. Our leadership is bankrupt and it wastes the likes of Seal Team Six men, Special Forces troops-- the "montroses" of the world-- the men we should be rightfully proud of, and just the basic, work-a-day soldier-- American, British, French-- by throwing them back into the fray, tour after tour. It is this same bankruptcy that permeated governments in the 1930s and it is this constant revisionism, a revisionism that denigrates the abilities of our enemies that reeks from the high-heavens. It is the same with a book that came out several years ago claiming v. Manstein wasn't as good as so many generals and historians claim. There has to be some latent sexual satisfaction in trying to prove some of these theories: "look at me, I'm so marvelous. I have proven the military genius to be inept." Sounds like the LBH. Try doing it on the ground, boys! Books like this are like the movies or Broadway... someone, please, come up with something new! Stop re-hashing the same old crap, twisting fact into new theory. Prove your point and move on. (Sounds like the LBH, too!) Stalin was as bad or worse than Hitler; just smarter. And we had-- I guess-- to deal with him. War is hell, but you know what? WWII solved all the problems, didn't it? Can anyone here honestly think we will ever see another European land war? Does anyone here believe 1930s " real politiks" was any different than today's? The Arabs may be the last major group/area going through their own catharsis... maybe in 10 or 20 years the real bastards will be corporate robber barons and all we'll have to worry about is water, smog, and over-population. They smell pretty bad to me already. I'll be dead by then, so screw it! Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by Dark Cloud on Mar 29, 2012 9:17:06 GMT -6
yantaylor,
Your rah-rah Anglo Saxon David Starkey is both a liar by omission and a moron. You cannot draw the baseline for French attitude at WWII's beginnings. France hosted near all of WWI on its land. It lost about 6% of its population with low birth rate, and they were about all young men. To them, and to history, it could look like they'd taken the beating while the British and certainly the Americans waited in some safety at war's beginning, when England only deployed 4 divisions out of 6 regular and a ton of Imperial men available, and both could retreat to safety. France could not.
WWII to them was just part 2, which history also seems to agree with more each year. The US in its worst war, the Civil, lost about 2% of its combined North-South Population, and this with huge birth rates and more huge immigration. You could read the growth rate of US industry and population and not realize there was a war on at all, much less a civil war. The US has been fortunate beyond imagination, and yet we cannot admit it and choose to view ourselves as blessed and deservedly so.
Wild continues to resurrect his Polish fairy tale. Poland, after WWI, was reorganized and politically divided between very reactionary Catholic monarchists and the contemporary communist and socialist parties arising everywhere. He doesn't dwell, or mention, the assassination in 1922 of Gabriel Narutowicz, the first President of the post WWI government, by the Polish right wing, or the 1926 para military coup leading to the usual banning of offensive political parties. The government and institutions with which the Allies had signed on to support was gone, and Poland was run by near fascist fanatical Catholics. This division maintained through the invasions of Poland and the entire WWII. It's always good to inquire 'which' Poland or 'which' Polish when you read about them. The conservatives were as anti-Semitic as the Nazis and had been for a long time.
England in 1939 had almost no ability to do much of anything, but last on the list of possibles was a land war in Poland against Germany and the Soviets. France was missing entire generations of men and its land and industries had never recovered and as a nation they were exhausted.
France was never given appropriate credit by the US for its crucial help in our Revolution, and our convenient Protestant ethic allowed us to profit from the war fought by England and France against the feudal aims of the Kaiser and the psychotic delusions of Hitler without sullying our moral fiber. There was no heroic French underground, true, which wasn't communist in WWII, but we never spent time imagining what we'd have been like losing 6% of our population with no birth rate or immigration to bring it together as happened here. That's rather cruel on our part. And stupid.
Wild is the drunk at the bar. He entices to comradeship than slanders in willing ignorance the nations and actions of his new friends, then will draw comparison to the mythical Ireland of his generation and install syllogism to genocide elsewhere. Should the conversation touch upon British military skill, he enters with 'we', but will retreat to 'they' when his eyes well about some event of overpowering unimportance to anyone except the Irish, or at least one of the violent sects. He wants us to view the Irish as similar to - but better than - American Indians in their fate depending on which angle works best for him.
He can't uplift Ireland, but he can subsume the good of others in half-informed tales of the bad. It's all he knows.
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Post by wild on Mar 29, 2012 10:16:05 GMT -6
Hi Fred This is a crock of manure... and it is comments like this that make me question the entire contents of revisionist history, regardless of how accurate the author's other points may be. It is this type of thing I call "Rini-ism": a theory justification by distorting facts or taking things out of context. My sources--- Max Hastings ALL HELL LET LOOSE. Times Atlas of the Second World War' And the indespencible google---The British and French governments had plans other than fulfilling their treaties with Poland. On May 4, a meeting was held in Paris at which it was decided that "the fate of Poland depends on the final outcome of the war, which will depend on our ability to defeat Germany rather than to aid Poland at the beginning." Poland's government was not notified of this decision
The fact remains, despite crappy tanks and a 25% breakdown/destruction rate, German military theory completely shocked the incompetent West... and East The fact remains that they took no action for 7 months.
Every single source for 70 years says the same thing: Western powers-- read, Britain and France-- believed the Poles could hold out, unaided, over the autumn and winter. Writings of the time said the same thing. The point is that they entered into a military treaty and committed to certain actions which they knew they were incapable of carrying out.It was bluff but they choose to keep the Poles in the dark about it.
Stalin was as bad or worse than Hitler; just smarter. And we had-- I guess-- to deal with him. War is hell, but you know what? WWII solved all the problems, didn't it? Can anyone here honestly think we will ever see another European land war Sure and it was paid for by millions in a gulag which stretched from Stettin in the Baltic to Trieste in the Adriatic. Best Wishes
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Post by Dark Cloud on Mar 29, 2012 10:43:56 GMT -6
No page numbers, no urls. Wild reference standards.
Again: which Poles, which Polish government.
Wild's Irish humanitarianism wanted us to nuke the Soviets before they got the bomb.
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Post by clw on Mar 29, 2012 14:37:27 GMT -6
Images of Wounded Knee? Have you seen, in fields of snow, frozen Jews, row on row? Blue marble forms lying, not breathing, not dying. Somewhere a flicker of a frozen soul - glint of fish in an icy swell. All brood. Speech and silence are one. Night snow encases the sun. A smile glows immobile from a rose lip's chill. Baby and mother, side by side. Odd that her nipple's dried. Fist, fixed in ice, of a naked old man: the power's undone in his hand. I've sampled death in all guises. Nothing surprises. Yet a frost in July in this heat - a crazy assault in the street. I and blue carrion, face to face. Frozen Jews in a snowy space. Marble shrouds my skin. Words ebb. Light grows thin. I'm frozen, I'm rooted in place like the naked old man enfeebled by ice Wounded Knee indeed! Spooky how well it fits. Who wrote it?
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Post by wild on Mar 29, 2012 16:46:44 GMT -6
clw Avrom Sutzkever July 10, 1944 When I read it I just thought Wounded Knee.Same theme,same everything. Fist, fixed in ice, of a naked old man: the power's undone in his handThe old man in the poem is the same old man as in that iconic photograph with arms outstreched fists fixed in ice.Yes spooky. Regards
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Post by benteen on Mar 29, 2012 18:22:25 GMT -6
A Boy Meets God
Look God: I have never spoken to You, But now I want to say, "How do You do." You see God, they told me You did not exist; And, like a fool, I believed all of this.
Last night from a shell hole I saw Your sky; I figured right then they had told me a lie. Had I taken the time to see the things You made, I would know they weren't calling a spade a spade.
I wonder, God, if You would shake my hand; Somehow, I feel that You will understand. Strange, I had to come to this hellish place Before I had time to see Your face.
Well, I guess there isn't much more to say, But I am sure glad, God, I met You today. I guess the zero hour will soon be here, But I am not afraid since I know You are near.
The signal - well, God, I will have to go; I love you lots, this I want you to know. Looks like this will be a horrible fight; Who knows, I may come to your house tonight.
Though I wasn't friendly with you before, I wonder, God, if you would wait at the door. Look, I am crying, me shedding tears! I wish I had known you these many years.
Well, I will have to go now, God. Goodbye - Strange, since I met you, I am not afraid to die.
~Author Unknown
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Post by clw on Mar 29, 2012 21:07:39 GMT -6
From sometime in WWII. I can't remember when or who, but I remember his words... God help us. You come yourself, don't send Jesus. This is no place for children.
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Post by wild on Mar 30, 2012 0:25:19 GMT -6
Dan One of the " Flooers o' the Forest, that fought aye the foremost, The pride o' oor land lie cauld in the clay". Ar deis De go raibh a anam.
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Post by benteen on Mar 30, 2012 9:34:11 GMT -6
Dan One of the " Flooers o' the Forest, that fought aye the foremost, The pride o' oor land lie cauld in the clay".Ar deis De go raibh a anam. Yes Richard, well said, my friend, well said. Be Well Dan
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