Camps Notes on Martini

[Tony]

I am staring a new post on this because I think it is rather important. Was Camps notes (Custer in 76) concerning Martini deliberately twisted or just confused? Here's my point.
In Martini's 1908 interview with camp, he states that Custer halted on a high ridge (I believe Weir) looked at the village through glasses and decided that the warriors were still out hunting and that the command would CAPTURE THE VILLAGE before the warriors would return--if it could be done, then the warriors would have to surrender upon return (pg 100-Custer in 76)--that must have been Custers plan!--So there was one!
Martini then says that Custer ordered command "Attention, Fours right Column Right" and went down Cedar--then "Column Left" into MTC--then 1/2 mile further is when he was sent back.--Clearly in MTC.-NOW, he states that he meets Boston first, and then goes to the high ground and turns (after hearing firing) and sees Custer retreating from the river (flats). The he states that warriors fired and hit his horse from the bluffs between him (Martini) and the river.
Here is my first dilemma-if Martini was at the bluffs near enough to see both Custer retreat and Reno in skirmish in the Valley (which he later says) how could warriors be between him and the edge of the bluffs?
Liz--on page 101 Martini asserted that he told Benteen that Custer was being attacked and said no more! He was positive that he never told Benteen that the warriors were skedaddling!
Now in Martinis interview in the same book (Custer in 76-pg 103) May 4, 1910 he states that he sees Custer retreating from the river first and then meets Boston.
Also in the foot notes Martini states (according to Camp) that he left Custer just as the command started down a ravine to get off the bluffs-somewhat to the right of the highest ground about 1000 ft. from it--that would surly indicate at the head of Cedar at the bend near Weir--completely opposite of anything that Martini ever testified to.-Man, sooo confusing!
Well if we believe Martini we have to agree that Custer was not only engaged, but engaged and retreating BEFORE Reno even went to the timber (remember Martini says that he saw Reno in SKIRMISH FORMATION in the Valley from his ride back). In skirmish means in skirmish line in the Valley and not in the timber as Gray tried to distort. But I am a little confused as to Martini's interviews and what Camp eventually pulled from it. Was it just confusion, or did Camp twist it and state what he wanted to? I still think that Martini holds a significant key to all this. If Custer was retreating BEFORE Reno went into the timber, then Custer knew nothing except that Reno had charged the village as ordered!

[shatonska]

tony
read martini in the reno inquiry , the battle was well in mind and he was speaking to a court , as the first curley's account in helena herald of 1876 these are the only not distorted by time personal interest and pressure

[twomoons]

Tony ~ If we allow Martini to be where he said he was. And see what he said he observed. And I think one has to at least look at the evidence as he presents it. Then the high drama becomes more intriguing. The truth becomes more evident. And the tragedy much more clear.

According to Martini. Boston couldn't have made it to Custer before his attack on MTF. Custer then would not have known as many have asserted that Custer knew Benteen's location. This is also paramount to understanding Custer's method's and movements. If as you and DO harris say, Custer immediately charged that ford. Then indeed he had to have done it soon after his observations at or near Weir Peak. This pushes the timing of Gray's analysis forward. Martini's ride occuring earlier and his encounter with Boston after Custer's strike at the ford.

Custer didn't know of Benteen's whereabouts. Didn't know in fact at the time of his decision to attack the ford that he was any where near! As far as Custer knew. And I think this is pretty clear. Benteen was still where he was supposed and ordered to be as far as Custer knew. And that Martini's departure being just shy of Custer's charge on Ford B. Makes it absolutely clear that Martini and Bostons meeting took place later, much later than the MTF engagement.

There is no confusion over this issue. The only confusion is over modern revisionist theories. That have continually changed the story to something more mysterious and romantic than it was ever meant to be.

When we advance the timing to place Custer at the river sooner. Which, I think, should be done. One has to realign where Boston and Martini met. That "surround" will prove beyond a shadow of a doubt exactly what Custer's intention at Ford B was.

[d o harris]

I'll never understand why so many are willing to accept what Martini said to Camp in 1908--32 years after the battle--or to Graham in 1920--44 years after the battle--and virtually ignore what he stated at the COI --31 months after the battle. His testimony there is straightforward, without elaboration, and on key points can be verified.

At COI he testified that he told Benteen "I supposed by that time he [Custer] had made a charge through the village." This was an obvious inference Martini made based upon the speed and direction Custer was moving when Martini left, and his understanding of Custer's intent.

Based on the COI you cannot find Martini placing Custer on Weir Pt.

Based on his testimony, and his locating the position on Maguire's map, Martini left the column at the head of Cedar Coulee.

Based on his testimony, which is verified by the testimony of several men with Reno who saw Custer on the bluffs, the point from which Custer and Martini viewed the valley was Sharpshooter Ridge, not Weir Pt., and not Reno Hill.

The Camp and Graham interviews ought not be used unless the information can be reconciled with COI testimony.

[elisabeth]

It's clear (isn't it?) that Boston must have joined Custer before the withdrawal from MTF, or he'd have had to fight his way through Indian fire to join them at Calhoun Hill -- and he doesn't strike me as much of a Rambo type of character. In that case, Custer may not have known Benteen's whereabouts when he first went onto the attack, but DID know them before withdrawing from MTF.

Cause and effect? Maybe not ... but it is one new factor that enters Custer's picture between intending to charge and deciding not to ...

[Scout]

First, let us remember that Camp's notes were just that....notes. His interview style and research style is confusing, but he never intended or invisioned his works being so scrutinized. He of course, never got around to writing his book and only he knew how to interpret his notes, but we take them literally. He is, somewhat responsible for the Nathan Short myth just from the way he kept his notes, but in the long run never believed in it himself.

Tony, couldn't agree with you more on Martini's testimonies, but that's the story of the LBH isn't it? Wallace, Martini, Benteen and so on, numerous privates, contradictory Indian accounts and then throw in some 'sole survivor' and Indian oral history accounts and you have one of the most confusing events in American History. Guess that's why we are so drawn to it.

[Tony]

I don't see how Martini's meeting with Boston occurred after MTC engagement--if it did, Boston could have never gotten through to Custer--as the warriors stated, as soon as whoever was down near the ford retreated, the warriors charged across like bees out of a bee hive. Many went up MTC to get in the rear of Custer (East). Their meeting had to have occurred before the engagement--Martini does state that in one of his interviews. I think both events happened close in time (Boston arriving and MT ford engagement).
As for where Martini left from, I thing it is clear that he left after the command came into MTC--Martini positively states that--he even showed (I thing it was either Terry or Benteen) where he left from.
As for any testimony at COI I wouldn't give two balls of goat sh-- for it--it was all manufactured to support Benteen and Reno and to keep up a good name for the 7th. I would rather trust the interviews before any COI testimony. If Martini's testimony was different, you can bet he was told what to say!
As for Benteen's location, when Martini was sent back, he was told in what area to find Benteen-a la-take the back trail and follow it to Benteen! I believe Custer supposed Benteen was where he was suppose to be--on Custer's back trail as ordered!
I believe a lot of what Martini asserted--he had no reason to lie or inflate his position. We just have to study his testimony and decide what was misunderstood and what was manufactured to be heard at the COI--the rest is pretty damn good evidence--I still maintain that Custer was engaged before Reno retreated to the timber!

[shan]

All the evidence seems to point to Martin departing with his message from around the juncture of Cedar and Medicine tail coulees, yes, he did seem to imply to somewhat later to Benteen, that he left around 600-yards from the ford, but this seems rather unlikely.
If we turn to Kanipes evidence, it would seem that he left a few hundred yards North of what was to become Renos defensive position, this being around 3.15 or shortly after. He tells very clearly of seeing Renos Charge, and of the Indian scouts, "going right to the Indian camp, which we could plainly see," why then send Martin back minutes later with the same message? It doesn't make any sense. there must have been some new information, some new development that necessitated Custer feeling that he had the make the sense of urgency clear to Benteen with a second message.
To go off on a tangent for a moment, I think I asked this question in another thread, could Custer have seen Benteens dust from say Sharpshooter hill, or Weir Point? One imagines that once they had seen the size of the camp, and seen by the temperament of the warriors, that they were going to fight, someone would have turned their field glasses back in that direction. Four years ago, I spent 12 days walking the battlefield, { something that was viewed as very odd behaviour by both visitors and Rangers,} but, as is the way, you think you have covered everything, looked at all the angles, but on arriving back home, and having re-read Grey, I realised that I had never even looked off in that direction.
One last thing. I find it hard to believe that any commander would not have gone to Weir Point to look for as many avenues of attack as were available. Viewed from Renos defensive position, Cedar Coulee seems to be heading off in the totally wrong direction to get your troops in a position to attack across the river. My guess would be that the troop may well have moved into the upper reaches in order to get them out of sight while the options were being assessed, and decisions being made. After all, if Custers force was seen so many times by various members of Renos force, surely they could have been seen by Indians?
Shan

[twomoons]

shan "If we turn to Kanipes evidence, it would seem that he left a few hundred yards North of what was to become Renos defensive position, this being around 3.15 or shortly after. He tells very clearly of seeing Renos Charge, and of the Indian scouts, "going right to the Indian camp, which we could plainly see," why then send Martin back minutes later with the same message? It doesn't make any sense. there must have been some new information, some new development that necessitated Custer feeling that he had the make the sense of urgency clear to Benteen with a second message."

Kanipe's message was for the Pack Train. It only pertained to Benteen if he came across Benteen on his way. The Message to Benteen was to Benteen and no other.

Even then one must temper what one knows to what Custer knew. The end scenaro isn't even a thought at this point. No one, not even Custer knows what will happen. And one must also use Custer's words as a guide. When did Custer say. "Hurrah boys, we've caught them napping. We'll finish up here and go home to our station." Was this said before or after Kanipe's ride? Before or after Martini's ride? I think his words betray his intent very clearly. So clearly in fact that waiting for any length of time in Cedar Coulee doesn't make any sense. Especially in light of what he said. And it was only when he reached a certain point that he knew for certain that they were ~ "napping." To wait on a waking foe wasn't what he was going to do, was it?

[johnson1941]

Oct 9, 2005 1:18:09 GMT -6 d o harris said:

I'll never understand why so many are willing to accept what Martini said to Camp in 1908--32 years after the battle--or to Graham in 1920--44 years after the battle--and virtually ignore what he stated at the COI --31 months after the battle. His testimony there is straightforward, without elaboration, and on key points can be verified.
...

Based on the COI you cannot find Martini placing Custer on Weir Pt.

Based on his testimony, and his locating the position on Maguire's map, Martini left the column at the head of Cedar Coulee.

Based on his testimony, which is verified by the testimony of several men with Reno who saw Custer on the bluffs, the point from which Custer and Martini viewed the valley was Sharpshooter Ridge, not Weir Pt., and not Reno Hill.

The Camp and Graham interviews ought not be used unless the information can be reconciled with COI testimony.

Great points by d o Harris...seems the only thing he got wrong is where Custer was seen. NO one placed him on SSH - why would they? The view into the valley sucked from out/up there.

Once on martin's Ridge = just as easy to make a left and go the high point Weir Hill just on the edge of the bluffs, as make a right and get 1400' farther AWAY from the bluffs and what you are trying to see
.
Wagner was close with 3411, but that was 90 years later.

The correct answer is: Weir's Hill/benteen's G/point 7...the highest hill/point, right on the edge of the bluffs. As confirmed numerous times by people who were there. Luckily Martin w/Camp re: "Custer first halted on Weir‘s hill and took a look at village" can be reconciled quite easily with the RCOI, 'cause it helped confirm what we already know in 1876-79 and via Benteen and DeRudio, et.al. ...that Custer first saw the village from the highest point = Weir's Hill, WHICH as Harris stated so clearly - IS NOT weir POINT.

"Custer first halted on Weir‘s hill and took a look at village…"
"the highest point of the bluff"
"It was on the highest point on the right bank of the creek"
"Custer rode to the edge of the high bank and looked over to the place where Reno’s men were,"
"I moved to the summit of the highest bluff.."
"There was a high hill which concealed the upper part of the village from us"
"I claim that what is called Weir’s Hill is the highest point on the ridge in that vicinity."
"Yes sir, the highest hill the very highest point around there...We went more to the right from that ridge and went down to a ravine..."



Which would you choose to see the village? The "high pinnacle" on the left (updated to only the height it was in 1891, same as SSH=3500', or the one on the right?


'The view into the valley sucked from SSH'...
View from SSH...WITHOUT the 3500'+ height of Weir's Hill in the way - as it was in 1876, as Wallace described re:reno area
"...There was a high hill which concealed the upper part of the village from us"



View from Weir Hill...unobstructed...only 1400' to the west...much easier to see, much easier to be seen. Overlooks the DeWolf grave (1700' away).

[johnson1941]

Further confirmation of the location and importance of Weir Hill/Martin's Ridge can be found with Godfrey & Hare with regards to the Weir withdrawal from Edgerly peaks. Crystal clear confirmation of Martin (and d o Harris re: its NOT Weir Point) and easy to reconcile...

"The Indians followed them to the crest of the hill and began a very heavy fire on them. As soon as I saw the Indians I dismounted my company and threw it out as skirmishers, and as soon as Lieutenant Edgerly and his company passed I commenced firing on the Indians and drove them back behind the hill, and they took position there behind the hill.”

"Godfrey after passing the long ridge some distance, dismounted his men, forming a skirmish line at right angle to the river...CO K was guarding ridge in rear of Weir Hill about 1/4-1/2 mile south of Weir Hill"

Hare
“A. Captain Weir and Captain French were the only ones who engaged the Indians till within 3 or 4 hundred yards of the final stand. Then Captain Godfrey engaged them.”
"...K company dismounted at the point where reno retreated up the bluffs."

So "about 1/4-1/2 mile south of Weir Hill" = "the point where reno retreated up the bluffs."

Reconciled and confirmed.

[herosrest]

^Ducemus

[johnson1941]

Godfrey 'drove them back behind the hill, and they took position there behind the hill.

In case anyone cares where one of the points where the Indians to the north fired on Reno Corral was

'the high point from which the indians fired on Reno Corral from the north was 600' from the edge of the bluff...just about where Reno retreated up'.

Seems about right - on SSH.

Which as we know is/was connected to Weir's Hill by Martin's Ridge.
All 3 can be seen in this shot of Godfrey and Camp. The whole ridge can be seen in the NPS photo...

[johnson1941]

As seen above, the image of Godfrey and Camp shows Weir's Hill in the background, unfortunately blocked by the horse.

Some one will come along eventually and give their opinion as fact that the hill behind the horse is actually Edgerly peaks.

Which is nonsense, cause here is the view from G/C's rocks to Edgerly Peaks...the peaks and loaf, with a gap, are the little tiny things WAY OFF in the distance - because they are 1500 YARDS away from SSH instead of only 1500 feet.


Nope.

Here is what Weir's Hill looked like in 1916, with its trail, its pinnacle (high between the front legs/near the blocking horse's left stirrup), its "little dip", and the plateau moving off to the right (and eventually steeply down). Which looks just like what the horse is hiding, with NO gap.
Weir's Hill also happens to overlook DeWolf's grave, and sure seems likely where Pym carried water when Reno 1st retreated.





Soldier (Ree scout behind Custer)
I, White Eagle, and Bull followed Custer and five companies. We came upon a white soldier whose horse had given out, and he was kicking the horse and striking him with his fist and saying "Me go Custer. Me go Custer." As we went up a little dip we looked over and saw the valley full of Sioux tepees, and I would estimate that there were eight or nine big circles. The first camp was breaking up. If I had had a good horse, I probably would have kept up to Custer and been killed with him. I soon came across a second soldier whose horse was down, overcome by heat, and he could not get him up and was swearing and calling him a son of a bitch and kicking him.

Just after this I saw Ree scouts who had captured horses come up the ridge and Strikes Two said: "Leader, I will give you this spotted horse that is leading the herd." Where they came up the river ran right along the foot of the bluff