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Honor
Oct 10, 2008 13:23:03 GMT -6
Post by "Hunk" Papa on Oct 10, 2008 13:23:03 GMT -6
(1) What do you think symantics is? The study of meanings. This is a thread about the meaning of "honor." www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/semantics(2) Also? Glory does not appear in the definition of honor, but honor appears in the definition of glory. Same MW site. This isn't trivia. Glory is an honor, all honor is not glory. I don't disagree with anything said, but these are mutually exclusive definitions. Given the frequency with which the word is used, that's dangerous. British common law has distinctions between Honor and Dignity, and it became a problem with dueling there and here. Issues of honor operate outside the law, law grants dignity. (3) An honorable man is righteous, one would hope, but apparently not.
(1) I really don't want to pursue this but you have chosen the definition of semantics that suits your purpose. There are further and different definitions underneath the one you chose and one of them, albeit in ponderous language, is the one I was referring to which I would not be surprised if you understood anyway. That definition is 'to utilise subtleties in meaning in order to generate argument.' Leaving that aside, I am surprised and disappointed that you have stated that the purpose of this thread is about the meaning of 'honor'. My Longmans Synonym Dictionary gives 100 meanings for the word as a noun and 49 as a verb so I can see no point in wading through the various meanings just for the hell of it. I had thought that we were trying to establish a concept of honor that would perhaps be the benchmark against which all uses of the word on these boards could be measured. (2) We will have to agree to disagree about this or I will have to assume that my Synonym Dictionary and that issued by the Oxford University Press are in error about the honor/glory synonymy. (3) How to measure what qualifies anyone to be regarded as righteous is as much of a labyrinth as seeking a meaning for honor. Those two words are rarely mutually inclusive because anyone who thinks they are righteous or honorable is basing that judgement on a biased opinion and end up being self-righteous. Honorable people can be righteous but if genuine, are probably unaware of either trait.
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Honor
Oct 10, 2008 15:44:05 GMT -6
Post by Dark Cloud on Oct 10, 2008 15:44:05 GMT -6
If you think calling someone honorable/honourable is the same as calling them glorious, then your chosen definition is correct. But nobody could think that. Anyone making that substitution would be a laughing stock, if they weren't beaten up. If you introduced someone with "Sir, I have the glory to introduce..." it sounds sarcastic, if not demented, and certainly rude.
As dictionaries use the primary definition first, we go by that over here. It was used correctly.
The more I think on it, I don't even believe Oxford would claim that, for the same reason that glorious has inflated connotations over honorable, but I don't have an Oxford here. I'll look in the library next visit. All glory is an honor, all honor is not a glory.
There already are definitions, we don't need to create a new one. But the meanings are slippery, contradictory, and verge on nonsense, implying a Higher Authority than the hoi polloi would understand. It can be intimidating without experience with those who hide behind it, outside the law.
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Honor
Oct 11, 2008 6:00:09 GMT -6
Post by wild on Oct 11, 2008 6:00:09 GMT -6
All glory is an honor, all honor is not a glory What he means is--- Honour can mean either a personal trait or an accolade .Glory is only an accolade.
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Honor
Oct 12, 2008 14:20:32 GMT -6
Post by "Hunk" Papa on Oct 12, 2008 14:20:32 GMT -6
If you think calling someone honorable/honourable is the same as calling them glorious, then your chosen definition is correct. But nobody could think that. Anyone making that substitution would be a laughing stock, if they weren't beaten up. If you introduced someone with "Sir, I have the glory to introduce..." it sounds sarcastic, if not demented, and certainly rude. As dictionaries use the primary definition first, we go by that over here. It was used correctly. The more I think on it, I don't even believe Oxford would claim that, for the same reason that glorious has inflated connotations over honorable, but I don't have an Oxford here. I'll look in the library next visit. All glory is an honor, all honor is not a glory. There already are definitions, we don't need to create a new one. But the meanings are slippery, contradictory, and verge on nonsense, implying a Higher Authority than the hoi polloi would understand. It can be intimidating without experience with those who hide behind it, outside the law.
This discussion is now pointless, being bogged down in hair splitting trivia. There will be no conclusion of any worth reached in that way, so I shall do the honorable thing and fall on my sword - or at least my keyboard.
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Honor
Oct 12, 2008 17:57:45 GMT -6
Post by markland on Oct 12, 2008 17:57:45 GMT -6
(1) What exactly IS honor, and (2) do those who claim to have it, exhibit it?
Taking (2) first, no, anyone who claims to be honorable is in no position to judge the veracity of his claim. Only others can verify whether or not a person is honorable and they do that by honoring him, not necessarily with garlands and titles, but by exhibiting the esteem in which they hold him. As it says in Romans 13:7, 'honor to whom honor is due' and it is not something you can exhibit, you can only be grateful that others have seen that trait in you. (1) Honor is of course synonymous with glory but I guess that is not the meaning you seek. Those who are honorable are invariably those who do not strive to be so. They are self-effacing, not self-serving, and they have high ideals which they will pursue even if that pursuit causes them inconvenience, monetary loss or high risk. There is no simple definition of honor because it is an abstract concept. You know it when you see it in someone but it is mostly impossible to put into words. Brutus considered himself an honorable man, but I have no doubt that Julius Caesar begged to differ. Honor cannot be a self appointed accolade. Hunk, I beg to disagree that honor is synonymous with glory. You can pursue military history and find some of the most reprehensible scallywags performing glorious feats of arms. Close to home in this conversation would be Tom Custer, who performed gloriously on two Civil War battlefields but, well, was he an honorable person? Not having read past your original post in the thread I don't know whether anyone mentions the contradictions of GAC himself. Anyway, I will leave it to you and DC to see how many angels can dance upon the tip of a pin. Be good, Billy
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Honor
Oct 13, 2008 15:04:25 GMT -6
Post by "Hunk" Papa on Oct 13, 2008 15:04:25 GMT -6
Hunk, I beg to disagree that honor is synonymous with glory. You can pursue military history and find some of the most reprehensible scallywags performing glorious feats of arms. Close to home in this conversation would be Tom Custer, who performed gloriously on two Civil War battlefields but, well, was he an honorable person? Not having read past your original post in the thread I don't know whether anyone mentions the contradictions of GAC himself. Be good, Billy
Billy, we are not talking dictionary definitions here, but about what respected publishers of 'Synonym Dictionaries', include as a list of such words to represent honor. Listing the first category of noun only in my Longman's, we have : esteem, regard, consideration, respect, repute, reputation, note, good name, good report, distinction, notability, eminence, prestige, influence, authority, fame, bays, illustriousness, glory, exaltation. The list does not represent my personal opinion but merely what I read in a well known publisher's work. I mentioned the synonymy in the post you quoted simply as a tongue in cheek reference to one of DC's pet hates and it escalated from there, presumably because in some cases, people have had a sense-of-humor by-pass. The point, of course, is that whilst any list of words may be synonyms, they, and the original key word are not mutually interchangeable in all circumstances. That I fully accept, but it does not disbar them from being synonyms. BTW I don't know any angels and if I can't be good at least I'm careful. Hunk
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Honor
Oct 13, 2008 17:30:37 GMT -6
Post by Dark Cloud on Oct 13, 2008 17:30:37 GMT -6
No Oxford mention today? And we're looking at something called Longman's? And it's not a dictionary, it's a, let's see, a "well known publisher's work?" A large step down from the Oxford. And esteem does not equal honor does not equal glory. They're only similar in that they are generally words used in praise.
A synonym means exactly the same, although there is no such thing, having different heritages for each word. Synonyms are very close in meaning, but rarely exact. Regardless, glory and honor are not the same thing, do not come from same sources or arise from the same circumstances. All glory is an honor; all honor is not a glory.
And, this is not dancing on the head of a pin. It's definition. "Honor" is a word people hide behind in some safety because nobody wants to have to pin down what is meant from the sliding meanings. Further, as I mentioned, honor and dignity are given attention in British common law in ways we do not, having a legal concept of 'no <need to> retreat,' in America, not waiting till the back is against the wall as is required under Common Law.
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Honor
Oct 14, 2008 7:50:12 GMT -6
Post by AZ Ranger on Oct 14, 2008 7:50:12 GMT -6
I am not sure Wild. Shooting a deer that has been hit by a car and suffering is illegal except for officers. Is the man who shoots the deer because it is suffering dishonorable?
AZ Ranger
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Honor
Oct 14, 2008 10:14:51 GMT -6
Post by "Hunk" Papa on Oct 14, 2008 10:14:51 GMT -6
No Oxford mention today? And we're looking at something called Longman's? And it's not a dictionary, it's a, let's see, a "well known publisher's work?" A large step down from the Oxford. And esteem does not equal honor does not equal glory. They're only similar in that they are generally words used in praise. A synonym means exactly the same, although there is no such thing, having different heritages for each word. Synonyms are very close in meaning, but rarely exact. Regardless, glory and honor are not the same thing, do not come from same sources or arise from the same circumstances. All glory is an honor; all honor is not a glory. And, this is not dancing on the head of a pin. It's definition. "Honor" is a word people hide behind in some safety because nobody wants to have to pin down what is meant from the sliding meanings. Further, as I mentioned, honor and dignity are given attention in British common law in ways we do not, having a legal concept of 'no <need to> retreat,' in America, not waiting till the back is against the wall as is required under Common Law.
You are so childish DC that it is quite pathetic at times. If you want something from the New Oxford Dictionary try the following, attributed as an entry found in Merriam-Websters Collegiate Dictionary:- " synonym noun a word or phrase that means exactly or nearly the same as another word or phrase in the same language" This could have been an interesting thread but, as usual, you just had to go to extremes to try and score a point that had little value in advancing your argument.
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Honor
Oct 14, 2008 12:51:00 GMT -6
Post by Dark Cloud on Oct 14, 2008 12:51:00 GMT -6
Hardly childish. You claimed the Oxford (we'll see if that's true) supported your contention. I'll bet it does not, since you abandon it under pressure.
You didn't know what semantics were (was), so you have small standing to criticize, except for my habit of misspelling it in reflection of Norton software, owned by Symantec, or vice versa.
I didn't choose the most recondite definition to win an argument, but the primary one, which makes your accusation against me of trying to make this a semantic argument rather stupid. Any discussion of a word's meaning is, by actual definition, a semantic argument. You didn't know that, won't admit you didn't know it, and accuse ME of being childish?
In any case, glory and honor are not interchangeable, and I provided the examples that preclude that assumption. All glory is an honor, all honor is not a glory.
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Honor
Oct 15, 2008 16:16:18 GMT -6
Post by "Hunk" Papa on Oct 15, 2008 16:16:18 GMT -6
Hardly childish. You claimed the Oxford (we'll see if that's true) supported your contention. I'll bet it does not, since you abandon it under pressure. You didn't know what semantics were (was), so you have small standing to criticize, except for my habit of misspelling it in reflection of Norton software, owned by Symantec, or vice versa. I didn't choose the most recondite definition to win an argument, but the primary one, which makes your accusation against me of trying to make this a semantic argument rather stupid. Any discussion of a word's meaning is, by actual definition, a semantic argument. You didn't know that, won't admit you didn't know it, and accuse ME of being childish? In any case, glory and honor are not interchangeable, and I provided the examples that preclude that assumption. All glory is an honor, all honor is not a glory.
Your response is petty, spiteful and infantile. All that is missing is 'So there see!' at the end. You are so reminiscent of Humpty Dumpty in Through the Looking Glass, "When I use a word" Humpty Dumpty said in a rather scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less." However, just to quell your fulminating doubts: From The Oxford English Dictionary 2nd Edition, Vol. VII 'Hat-Intervacuum' page 357 honour c. As received, gained, held or enjoyed; Glory, renown, fame etc., Vol. XIV 'Rob-Sequyle' Semantics examples of alternative use: From the NY Post of 3/8/1966 - 'Senator Pastore said that everybody was engaged in semantics "It comes down to a very fine point" he said'. From the 1978 Jargon of Professions K. Hudson, 'Almost daily in the press briefing whenever a newsman raises his hand to ask for clarification of some mealy-mouthed statement': "I am not going to debate semantics with you" the statesman replies.' Vol. XVII 'Su-Thrivingly' Synonym 1. Strictly, a word having the same sense as another (in the same language); but more usually either or any of two or more words (in the same language) having the same general meaning, but possessing each of them meanings which are not shared by the other or others, or having different shades of meaning or implications appropriate to different contexts. The New Oxford Thesaurus of English: Honour noun 2. Distinction, privilege, glory, tribute And finally, from the good old American 'Merriam Webster's Dictionary of Synonyms' page 406: honor n glory, renown, family, celebrity, eclat, etc., Now if you disagree with any of that, may I suggest that you write one of your acerbic diatribes to the publishers concerned.
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Honor
Oct 15, 2008 21:37:01 GMT -6
Post by AZ Ranger on Oct 15, 2008 21:37:01 GMT -6
I don't know about all of these definitions but my view is that the word honor would be a large circle and glory a smaller circle fitting inside the honor circle.
honor-
Any of the four or five highest cards, especially the ace, king, queen, jack, and ten of the trump suit, in card games such as bridge or whist.
To accept or pay as valid
A program of advanced study for exceptional students
A woman's chastity or reputation for chastity
A mark, token, or gesture of respect or distinction
AZ Ranger
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Honor
Oct 15, 2008 22:35:03 GMT -6
Post by biggordie on Oct 15, 2008 22:35:03 GMT -6
What's a good cinnamon for absurbic?
Gordie
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Honor
Oct 15, 2008 22:37:58 GMT -6
Post by AZ Ranger on Oct 15, 2008 22:37:58 GMT -6
fresh ground Cinnamon
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tatanka
Full Member
Live for today like there was no tomorrow
Posts: 125
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Honor
Oct 16, 2008 1:31:46 GMT -6
Post by tatanka on Oct 16, 2008 1:31:46 GMT -6
Gives me heartburn.
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