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Post by biggordie on Jun 25, 2008 8:50:11 GMT -6
And you were probably late for the Procrastination classes - "what the hey, I can always go tomorrow, or next week."
Gordie
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Post by crzhrs on Jun 25, 2008 8:59:56 GMT -6
Horse, he said what I said he said. Pg 75. Is that page 75 of the RCOI? I'm not doubting he said it at the COI but was that what he said to Custer? Did he tell Custer that he saw the "town" and "tepees" or just Indians running? I can't find anything in the COI that he said to Custer he saw the "town" The only sighting of Indians were the ones running from the Lone Tepee village. If these were the Indians Girard saw they weren't from the "town" and Custer's decision was based on these Indians not the "town" If so, then Custer made his decision/mistake and sent his 8 remaining companies to attack a small group of Indians not the village.
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Post by BrokenSword on Jun 25, 2008 9:00:36 GMT -6
Gordie - "...And you were probably late for the Procrastination classes ..."
I haven't actually gotten around to signing up for them yet, but I will... very soon. I think. Haven't fully decided to take them yet.
M
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Post by bc on Jun 25, 2008 10:16:09 GMT -6
We have to excuse Gordie, they have another outbreak of mad cow disease up there in his commonwealth. May be time for Gordie to find another AO.
BS, I had the same issue but I was RA. Even with the GI Bill, it took me a number of years of work and school and sitting there with the "kids" to get it done.
Crzhrs, I have been under the impression and have so far adopted the position that Gerard's first siting was the small vill at the lone tepee site that was on the run and that Custer's order to Reno to "attack and the command will support you" was said in regard to the chasing of the vill down Reno Creek. It was only later that the main/big vill was sited and that new orders (by Cooke maybe) told Reno to cross the river and attack the main vill. The whole command will support him statement by Custer, assuming it was made, was in reference to the fleeing vill down Reno Creek and Custer was still technically behind Reno at the time. Reno, in retrospect, claimed the statement applied later on to his valley attack.
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Post by biggordie on Jun 25, 2008 10:56:11 GMT -6
There was no village at the Lone Tipi site that morning, and there were no Indians running from it, except in the imagination of some of the early writers on the subject who did not not read Gerard's RCOI testimony, where he stated that the Indians he saw were across the Little Horn. This particular scenario has been debated to death, and it's about time to put it to rest FCS. Nobody else reported seeing any Indians east of the Little Horn.Gerard is quite clear about what he saw and where he saw it. Same with Varnum, who saw Indians in the valley.
ONE CANNOT SEE THE LOCATION OF THE MAIN CAMPS FROM GERARD'S KNOLL. The Indians he testified to seeing were "down in the valley of the Little Big Horn River- I should say over three miles from where we were [very close to to where the lodge where the dead Indians were]," this from Nichol's RCOI pp 111.
Also from Nichol's RCOI pp 84: "A few minutes before Major Reno received his orders I rode up a little knoll near where there was a lodge with some dead Indians in it, and from this knoll I could see the town, the Indian tepees and ponies. I turned by [sic] horse sideways and took off my hat and waved it and then I hallooed to General Custer, 'Here are your Indians, running like devils!' And I rode down from that knoll and joined General Custer and he was marching on." See also Graham's Abstract of the RCOI. pp 35 and pp 44.
Gordie
PS - bc: I'm considering Mexico. The only thing holding me back is medical insurance, and the fact that I'll lose part of my pension if I leave Canada.
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Post by BrokenSword on Jun 25, 2008 11:58:13 GMT -6
BS - “…I had the same issue but I was RA. Even with the GI Bill, it took me a number of years of work and school and sitting there with the "kids" to get it done…”
I gotta admire your perseverance and determination.
I was late in applying to an institution of higher learning (see biggordie’s reply # 32, above) and was caught in a window thru which came the Draft. I reported for the pre-induction physical at the time and on the date I was ordered to do so. It seems that too many individuals were called for that day’s group (not as many no-shows as they were predicting), and the bus didn’t have seats enough for all to sit. I ended up standing from Charleston, SC to Fort Jackson - about an hour and a half away. Took my physical and mental tests and was sent home.
For some reason I didn’t want to go into the Army but certainly wasn’t looking to duck out on the responsibility either. What to do? I went and talked to the local USMC recruiter who basically said, “Were much like the Army, but our uniforms are a helluva more impressive to the girls, and we don‘t wear those silly little hats like the Navy.” I was sold! Signed up for a delayed entry. It was summer and the beach was right there, plus I got a little bonus money for enlisting.
In the time between enlisting and reporting, I began receiving new draft classifications thru the mail. 2-DD, 3-Yyor some such. ‘Only as a hostage’ or “Perfectly expendable bridge holder’ and bizarre stuff like that. Then a few short days later came the coveted draft card which read, 4-F. Reason? ‘High blood-pressure.’ Wow! Figured I was home free! I went too the Naval Hospital two or three weeks later for the USMC medical examination required for enlistees, and told the doctor the story and showed him my 4-F letter.
“Humm,” he said, ‘Let’s check it out.” Wrapped my arm, squish, squish, squish and announced, “Interesting, its perfectly normal.” He shoulda checked it after he said that, and checked my heart-rate too.
“WHAT?” I asked in astonished disbelief. With a little questioning, he determined that the elevated blood-pressure was temporary - due to standing on the bus to Fort Jackson, and that the other four or five who did the same probably were rejected as 4-F as well. But me? They had me.
Anyone else here, or is it just me, that has these minor traumas of misunderstanding that lead to life-changing - (Everyone! All together now ) DECISIONS? Some said I ‘screwed up,’ ‘made a mistake’ and such, but actually - I only made a decision. One based on the facts as I understood them to be at the time. Just as you explained.
In hind-sight, and as it turned out for me, I am not willing to say it was a mistake at all. The recruiter was right about the effects of the dress blue uniform. Especially when tailor-fitted to a fine figure such as mine. Well, in the days before my shoulders slid down to my hips anyway. I did however suffer from long term effects of post traumatic how you gonna’ keep ‘em down on the farm syndrome. Which helps to explain why I couldn’t sit with the ‘kids’ all day as you, and most others, had the patience to do. Maybe, in a way, I was too immature to do so, but I am not lacking in self-discipline. Maybe I just couldn’t see that the answers I was saw as important were to be had in that environment.
I guess that, technically, makes me a draft dodger? In a frying pan into the fire sorta way.
Either way, here I am. Sniveling in front of all of you, and with all of you saying, "What is he talking about and what does it have to do with anything?"
M
P.S. Gordie - Southern Mexico is altogether different from Northern Mexico. The stereotype of Mexico (hot and dry, inedible spicey food and all) is derived from the north of that country. A reduced pension will go farther than a full one north of the border. Miguel
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Post by bc on Jun 25, 2008 12:54:59 GMT -6
Allright Gordie, I'll keep researching that but I'm following Doran at page 80 of his book where he indicates with a careful reading of Gerard's testimony that he made sitings from 2 different knolls and one of them was a group of summer roamers in the South fork area that he called a "town" but were on the move with travois, etc moving towards the Ford A area where they eventually hid in the timber there. These summer roamers are the first ones he has Reno going after.
By the way, $2.66 gas in mexico. Translates to about a million pesos. Too bad your dogsled won't make it that far. Prescriptions and medical care is cheap down there but you get what you pay for. Sterile scalpels?, we don't need no stinking sterile scalpels. We got stinking bowie knives and coat hangers. FDA approval?, we don't no stinking FDA approval for our drugs. Bout like Canada.
BS, too bad about the late application to college. A little education would have taught you the Army is better and to avoid the Marines.
I bussed to Kansas City at this one hotel the army leased out just for recruits. Across the street from the Muelebach and a block or two from the bar district. Hit the bars and came in about 3 am. Found out they double booked me in a room with a single bed which was taken so I went back to the lobby hung out with some guys with a bottle who were shipping out that morning. We had a great time. Went to the breakfast counter about 5:30 and passed out with my head on the bar eating eggs. The woke me at 6:00 and sent us to the basement to start taking tests. Drunk as hell and I'm trying figure out which one of the folded out boxes matched the one in the picture. There were a bunch of tests like that. Bussed us over somewhere for the medical, told them I had two hernias when I was a kid and they said no problemo.
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Post by BrokenSword on Jun 25, 2008 14:35:36 GMT -6
"... A little education would have taught you the Army is better and to avoid the Marines...."
Let this be a lesson to all. Comedy is serious business. DO NOT - repeat: DO NOT - try it at home.
As for boxes... with a k-bar I can make it lay down in any shape you prefer.
M - Uncle Sam's Misguided Child
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Post by biggordie on Jun 25, 2008 16:29:28 GMT -6
bc:
I haven't read Doran, and don't intend to do so. Gerard did, in fact, testify to seeing Indians from two different knolls, but the other one was right at the crossing - between 20 and 50 yards from the Ford A area, and it was here that he testified that he saw the Indians down the valley, apparently not running, and this spurred him to report same to Custer - likely because he had been the one who said that they WERE running. He ran into Cooke and gave him the information.
This is all in the RCOI. Nowhere in any of the Gerard sources - the RCOI, his correspondence with his daughters and the newspapers and Walter Camp, his account in the Arikara Narrative - is there a mention of any village at the Lone Tipi site, or of Indians on the east side of the river.
Gerard was on the Crow's Nest with Custer, and saw "a dark mass" across the river, but nothing of Indians on the near side. At the Inquiry, he stated that his sighting from Gerard's Knoll was the first time he knew them to be Indians. Varnum stated many, many times that the only lodges seen were the one standing and one knocked down at the LTS, and that the only Indians he saw were across the river
Doran has either misread Gerard's testimony, or has fabricated the entire scenario. The RCOI transcript is available on-line, so you can check it our for yourself. I think the same writers who espoused the village at the LTS found out that they were misreading the testimony [when they got around to it - remember that it was not widely available until the 1950s], and hence invented the SECOND OR THIRD LONE TIPI, so they could stick to their guns about which Indians the command was pursuing
If you find an original source which contradicts what I have posted, please be kind enough to let me know.
M:
I was thinking of the Yucatan or maybe Oaxaca City [fantastic local beer and a wonderful daily market with about 300 kinds of chilis] or the little town near Palenque in Chiapas, whose name I can't remember. There is also a neat little town outside Chichen Itza. I can just about make the nut required for immigration, maybe a bit more - and the cost of living is hardly a problem, and besides I can speak a little of that Habla that The Duke mentions in Three Godfathers. The medical is a real concern at my age, since one can start downhill very rapidly. I may just do six months there and six months here, so that I would only need a visa and not have to apply for permanent residence, and would retain my BC Medical coverage.
bc:
Re: Mad Cow and sleds. You were right on, man. My cow just died of Mad Cow, and since she was my sled-puller, I am how-do-you-say-it? Screwed.
Recruiter's questions to the potential Marine standing in front of his desk:
Can you see me, son? Of course I can, I ain't blind.
Is anybody holding you up? What the heck you talking about. You can see I'm alone.
Speaking of being alone, son, did anyone walk you over here holding you by the hand, or did you walk all by your ownself? What is this crap, anyway? I came here by myself to join the Marines.
Sign here. kid.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Jun 25, 2008 19:41:38 GMT -6
You have to be one to appreciate it.
Semper Fi
AZ Ranger
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Post by BrokenSword on Jun 25, 2008 20:49:15 GMT -6
Larry, thanks. Yeah, watching army guys in basic is always kinda cute. Sweetly charming even, in its own little way. Then there's Parris Island. Be forewarned. Even though they cleaned it up some for film, there's still certain things here that will offend some ears, as well as certain politically correct sensitivities. youtube.com/watch?v=C1zGjiqV5cEGordie - The Yucatan? I really didn't care for much there, but to each his own. How do you say 'adios' in Spanish? Alexander Hamilton is inducting the first Marines. He walks up to the first one and says, "What's your name, Private?" "SIR, O'Brien SIR!" is the replay. Hamilton extends his hand and says, "Welcome aboard O'Brien." He steps to the second and says, "What's your name Private?" "SIR, Kelly SIR!" Hamilton extends his hand and says, "Welcome aboard Kelly." He steps to the third and says, "What's your name Private?" "SIR, Shipero SIR!" O'Brien leans over to Kelly and says, "It just ain't like the Old Corps." AZ - Damn right. Semper Fi M
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Post by bc on Jun 25, 2008 22:17:34 GMT -6
BS & AZ: Comedy is serious business and just to keep the peace and to keep everyone from dying with, rolling on the floor with, and wetting their pants with laughter, I will keep my book of a million and one marine jokes closed. Unless at some point I lapse into a period of temporary insanity and forget. However is it open season on sailors?
Do you know why you have to be at least 6 feet tall to join the Coast Guard?....
That way when their boat sinks, they can walk to shore.
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Post by BrokenSword on Jun 26, 2008 5:34:22 GMT -6
gocav - "...I was always told that the Army and Marines were just the Air Forces helpers...."Sure. Always glad to help 'em. Lord knows they needed help from somebody. My favorite line comes at 0:44 seconds into this short clip: www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwjHhJdhY0Ibc, Nawh, no gripe with sailors. They did a great job. Got all of our gear where it was supposed to be and didn't lose a thing. BUT... Know why they put marines on ships at sea? So the sailors will have some men to dance with on Saturday nights. Agreed on your cease-fire suggestion. Back to our regularly scheduled program. M
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Post by crzhrs on Jun 26, 2008 6:37:30 GMT -6
<I haven't read Doran, and don't intend to do so. Gerard did, in fact, testify to seeing Indians from two different knolls, but the other one was right at the crossing - between 20 and 50 yards from the Ford A area, and it was here that he testified that he saw the Indians down the valley, apparently not running, and this spurred him to report same to Custer - likely because he had been the one who said that they WERE running. He ran into Cooke and gave him the information>
Didn't Girard say his scouts told him the Sioux weren't running as Reno approached the village?
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Post by biggordie on Jun 26, 2008 7:42:32 GMT -6
Both, crzhrs. The scouts called out to him across the river, and he saw the Indians from the knoll near the river, the one that Reno's command rode around [on both sides].
I didn't mention that because I was concentrating on Gerard's testimony about the knoll near the LTS.
Gordie
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