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Post by clw on Jun 24, 2008 13:50:29 GMT -6
Well put bc. I agree.
That makes it sound like the command just moved down Ash Creek without recon. There were scouting parties under both Hare and Varnum in front and flanking.
from Varnum's memoir... Lt. hare reported to me the night before for duty and I sent him to the right front and I took the left front of the advance. From every hill where I could see the valley I saw Indians mounted. I reported my observations several times.
Martin to Graham... All the time as we rode, scouts were riding in and out, and the General would listen to them and sometimes gallop away a short distance to look around.
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Post by BrokenSword on Jun 24, 2008 14:20:17 GMT -6
Speaking of 'conspiracy'.......
It does my heart good to see so much activity on the forum today. Frankly, I've been unusually busy (dodging warrants, drinking beer, and such) the last few days and have merely checked in here to see what's up. Little activity lead me to believe that all of you (through PMs) had arranged to meet at the Battlefield tomorrow - WITHOUT ME. Of course, I suppose it's possible that you are all there and sharing a laptop to complete the ruse. I wonder.
M
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Post by crzhrs on Jun 24, 2008 15:45:43 GMT -6
<Martin to Graham... All the time as we rode, scouts were riding in and out, and the General would listen to them and sometimes gallop away a short distance to look around>
Apparently the General didn't see anything.
Maybe if Custer stopped and had scouts thoroughly investigate while the command waited for an answer he would have succeeded.
Continuing in a reconnisance/attack mode with the entire command left him with little options once Indians were seen running (no actual sighting of a village, however) but to attack without full knowledge of location, size, disposition, etc. of the village.
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Post by crzhrs on Jun 24, 2008 15:46:53 GMT -6
BS:
I'm still here . . . can't get away to the LBH once again . . . even though my posts are down I'm still around.
It is, of course, the start of summer and my 'Net time is down. Gotta play in the garden, go kayaking, sell at the farmer's market and just hang out.
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Post by clw on Jun 24, 2008 16:27:25 GMT -6
Horse ~ You said he should have sent out smaller scouting parties and I pointed out he did. And according to Varnum they saw plenty of NDNs, but granted, not the village.
But before the attack order, the location was known. Gerard at the RCOI... "A few minutes before Major Reno received his orders, I rode up a little knoll...and from this knoll I could see the town, the Indian tipis and the ponies."
So whatever plan was formulated by Custer, it was formulated with the location of the village determined. And the Crow and Bouyer knew the specific area well and would have described it to Custer pretty accurately in terms of the broken land on the east side of the river, etc. Now I'll grant they didn't know how huge it was and maybe additional recon would have provided that information, but his attack wasn't as blind as you make it sound.
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Post by BrokenSword on Jun 24, 2008 17:19:37 GMT -6
crzhrs- "...I'm still here ..."
crz, you are a comfort to me in my old age.
This year I've had to settle for the Retroplex channel's showing this afternoon of 'They Died With Their Boots On'.
Yeah, yeah... totally inaccurate (well they DID get some names of people and places correct), but that movie and an iced down six-pack is a helluva lot of fun. They just don't make history like that anymore. Oliver Stone's history fantasies can't hold a candle.
M
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Post by pohanka on Jun 24, 2008 17:24:40 GMT -6
Benteen to Terry when Terry showed up at Reno Hill "Mistakes were made." Those three words speak volumes, 'nuff said!
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Post by BrokenSword on Jun 24, 2008 17:33:52 GMT -6
bc,
That was an excellent post pointing out the difference between 'mistakes' and 'choices'. I agree. That is, I agree with clw who agrees.
Which of us has never said, 'If I only knew then, what I know now..."?
M
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Post by BrokenSword on Jun 24, 2008 18:15:41 GMT -6
Hi Larry,
Thanks and yes, I'd seen that several years ago, not long after the Sept. 11th attacks.
It's been so long since I've had a $20 bill, I'd nearly forgotten it.
M
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Post by bc on Jun 24, 2008 21:07:26 GMT -6
BS. The mistake analysis is an offshoot from decision analysis. Something briefly touched on in an old college management class. A few years ago, I organized some defensive drivers classes at the Legion. Partly to benefit the Legion but we needed it for my daughter so we could save on insurance and also hope she learns something to save her life. I've been to a number of them. What I found was that they teach defensive driving techniques such as look twice, scan your mirror, watch other drivers, etc. but no one teaches kids these days the basics of basic decision making.
My example of pulling away from a stop sign for instance: There may be 20 or 30 or more factors that are evaluated in your mind before you hit the gas pedal and then you can break that down further how you evaluate an approaching car's speed in relation to stationary and other moving objects, etc. They don't teach that to kids in drivers ed classes either.
And it is something they don't teach kids in school period. How to identify factors, make evaluations, think things through, and make decisions. There are many ways the decision making process can help kids and people but I kinda focused on the driving issue because it may help save a few lives. Like the first time I ever drove on an LA freeway, I was tentative but my uncle just said "drive like you've lived here all your life" so I hit the gas and changed lanes with the best of them.
Maybe Clair will jump in and tell what they teach now and what was taught in the past at the academy about the art of decision making. Probably ought to have its own thread.
Also you mentioned they died with their boots on. It was on twice last Sunday on the Westerns channel. And that was about 3 weeks after it had already been on twice in one day. It's my favorite but what I noticed for the first time was when he got off the train in Monroe after Appomattox to marry Libbie, he only had one star on his shoulders. He shoulda had two.
CRZ and Pohanka, regarding Benteen's statement to Terry: Who was Benteen saying made the mistakes? The deceased or Reno? He certainly wasn't admitting he, himself made any was he? Admitting he made mistakes is an admission that he knew better but did something anyway. It doesn't really matter cause the point I'm trying to make is the word mistake is probably too loosely used. Even our president has probably only admitted to making one mistake during his two terms as much as the democrats claims he makes a lot of them otherwise he certainly dances around the subject alot.
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Post by crzhrs on Jun 25, 2008 7:35:41 GMT -6
No one admits mistakes . . . but everyone seems to point out others' mistakes.
When things go well everyone wants credit . . . when things go bad it's finger-pointing time.
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Post by crzhrs on Jun 25, 2008 7:38:20 GMT -6
<But before the attack order, the location was known. Gerard at the RCOI... "A few minutes before Major Reno received his orders, I rode up a little knoll...and from this knoll I could see the town, the Indian tipis and the ponies.">
Did Gerard say that to Custer? I believe Gerard said: "There go your Indians" etc., but nothing about seeing a "town" or "tepees"
Did anyone else say they saw the village at that time?
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Post by clw on Jun 25, 2008 8:06:02 GMT -6
Horse, he said what I said he said. Pg 75.
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Post by BrokenSword on Jun 25, 2008 8:15:25 GMT -6
crzhrs- "...No one admits mistakes . . . but everyone seems to point out others' mistakes.
When things go well everyone wants credit . . . when things go bad it's finger-pointing time. ..."
When I worked in publishing, we called them 'Blame Allocation Meetings'. There are a few who will admit to 'mistakes'. I was fortunate to have as my first employer a boss who was understanding with a certain 16 year-old (who shall remain nameless), and said to the same, on one occasion, "BrokenSword, a mistake is a gift." That nameless young man took those words of advice to heart, never forgot them and they have served VERY well ever since.
I think Ben Franklin (maybe?) said something along the lines of, 'Failure is an orphan, but success has a thousand fathers."
Anonymous
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Post by BrokenSword on Jun 25, 2008 8:40:55 GMT -6
bc- "...The mistake analysis is an offshoot from decision analysis. Something briefly touched on in an old college management class.
... the art of decision making. Probably ought to have its own thread.."
My trek to college was derailed by, 'Greetings, from the President (Lyndon Johnson)...," and I never could settle fully into a classroom setting after that. So, for me, decision making was an on-the-job training experience.
A thread devoted to decision making might be a worthwhile concept. I can't decide.
M
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