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Post by shatonska on Aug 16, 2005 15:21:48 GMT -6
Shatonska It is about 1 1/6th mile from MTF to the base or beginnings of Luce ridge. It is about 1 2/3rds mile to Nye=Cartwright ridge from MTF. From Martini's supposed 600 yard position - approximatly 1/3rd mile away from MTF. These then were respectively 5/6th of a mile and 1 1/3rd mile from where Tony claims Martini departed from Custer. This position is by the way within easy sight of MTF area, on the eastern slope of MTC going down hill towards MTF. thanks , impossible for me martini left there ,but , who knows ?
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Post by One Tin Soldier on Aug 16, 2005 15:39:16 GMT -6
Yup, your welcome!
Another thing to consider is what they could have been doing at that time. Now then. The first point at which the MTF area is observable is 2/3rds of a mile away. At that point the terrain starts to descend.
If they were where Martini said they were, then they were likely in full charge towards the river. Because that position 1/3rd mile away, it would best be assumed that they wouldn't be walking! Right? From 2/3rds mile - Charging at a full gallop/run it would have taken them about 2 1/2 minutes to reach the ford. From this 600 yard position it would have taken them just a few seconds past 1 minute to reach it.
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Nomad
Junior Member
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Post by Nomad on Aug 16, 2005 19:46:11 GMT -6
Hello Everyone,
Tony, I agree with your premise, i.e., Martini has no reason to lie or embellish his testimony; he was not a decision maker, so he has nothing to account for. However, his difficulty with English, at that point in his life, may have prohibited him from articulating exactly what he saw.
The problem starts with Martini’s description of Reno’s deployment in the valley, as seen from Weir Point. His less than detailed observations affect our understanding of the timing of simultaneous and follow-on events. I think the best way to approach this problem is to hypothesize possible and alternative explanations, and see how well they explain his observations.
Let’s begin with his point of departure from Custer’s column. Martini claims that he left Custer approximately 600 yards from the ford at Medicine Tail Coulee (600 yds. is a little better than a quarter of a mile). What can we know, with some degree of certainty, happened after Martini left Custer?
• Martini, while traveling along Weir Point on his way to Benteen, observed Reno fighting in the valley. • Martini caught-up with Benteen’s column, before Benteen witnessed Reno’s flight across the river. • An uncertain number of companies from Custer’s column moved toward the ford. • Cavalrymen on Reno Hill heard volleys coming from north of their position. • An action of some type was fought on Nye-Cartwright Ridge.
What did Martini see from his position on Weir Point? He claims he saw Reno’s column fighting in skirmish formation in the valley. Was Reno attacking, or was he, at that point in time, in a defensive posture, moving toward the timber? I think it’s safe to assume that Martini didn’t stop to analyze Reno’s predicament, thus his testimony is a general description, i.e., Reno was fighting in skirmish order. Is there anything in the historical record that might shed some light on Reno’s order of battle? I think there is.
In W.A. Graham’s The Custer Myth, Lt. Godfrey testifies that shortly after Martini arrived, he heard gunfire to his front, and “the column took the gallop with pistols drawn, expecting to meet the enemy”, but instead, found Reno in a headlong retreat across the river, and up a steep bluff (Graham 1953: 141). Therefore, we can assume that between the time Martini saw Reno’s skirmish line, and the time Godfrey observed Reno’s rout, Reno must have abandoned the skirmish formation, and fled to the timber. If, as Reno claims, he fought in dismounted skirmish formation for 15 to 20 minutes, and fought from the timber for another 20 to 30 minutes, then the question becomes: How long did it take Martini to travel the five miles or so from Weir Point to the spot where he met Benteen? If it took him 15 to 20 minutes to cover that distance, then Reno’s time in the timber is accounted for, and what Martini saw from Weir Point was Reno fighting in retreat. Alternatively, if it only took him 15 minutes, then Reno’s time line for the fight in the timber is inaccurate. Moreover, if it took Martini more than 30 minutes to reach Benteen, then it is more than likely that he observed Reno shortly after he dismounted his column to fight on foot. Which of these is the most likely explanation? To answer this question, I combined the gravity of the situation with distance, and an estimate of Martini’s traveling time.
Martini’s testimony indicates that he understood it was important to reach Benteen with all haste; thus, he rode as fast as the terrain permitted, and covered the five mile distance in 20 minutes or so; therefore, what he saw from Weir Point, must have been Reno fighting in skirmishes as he retreated toward the timber. By the time Martini reached Benteen, Reno had already left the timber and was running for his life toward the bluffs. The movement of Custer’s column is likewise limited by time and space, but in his case, there is additional evidence to help us discern what he was up to during the time Martini was riding from Medicine Tail Coulee to the point where he met Benteen.
I began this part of the hypothesis by asking myself: How long did it take Martini to ride from Medicine Tail Coulee to Weir Point? According to the map at the Atlas of the Sioux Wars website (http://www-cgsc.army.mil/carl/resources/csi/sioux/IMAGES/MAP22.GIF), from the place where he left Custer to Weir Point, is a mile and a quarter, so let’s say it took Martini 5 minutes or less to cover that distance. If it took Martini 5 minutes or less to ride a mile and a quarter to Weir Point, and 20 minutes to ride the five miles from Weir Point to the place where he met Benteen, then the entire trip took 25 minutes. What was Custer doing during that 25 minute interval?
It would be militarily unsound to cede the high ground to hostile riflemen, and approach the ford from within the coulee itself. In Michno’s Lakota Noon, the Indian testimony tells us that a number of companies approached the Medicine Tail ford from the high ground below Nye-Cartwright Ridge, and according to that testimony, it is highly likely that one of those companies was Company E. Let’s disregard the reason for the movement toward the ford, and concentrate on what happened on the high ground between Medicine Tail Coulee and Deep Coulee.
The archaeological evidence indicates that an indeterminate number of cavalry troopers fired their carbines from Nye-Cartwright Ridge. Why? What were the troopers firing at? Indian testimony tells us that an indeterminate number of cavalry troopers advanced toward the ford and later retreated northeast along the high ground toward Calhoun Hill. The troops retreated because they began taking heavy fire from the Indians across the river, and from two separate groups of 25 Cheyenne, one to the west and one to the east. Indian testimony also indicates that as the troopers retreated diagonally across the high ground toward Calhoun Hill, warriors from the village crossed the river in large numbers to attack their rear. I think it’s safe to assume that the eastern group of Cheyenne had crossed Medicine Tail Coulee, and joined the attack. The troopers on Nye-Cartwright Ridge were firing volleys at both groups of warriors to cover the retreat of the companies that had advanced toward the ford. The question now becomes: Could this action have transpired within the 25 minutes it took Martini to reach Benteen? Absolutely.
According to Indian testimony and the physical evidence, it is evident that Custer’s column gained the high ground north of Medicine Tail Coulee, and moved toward the river. At some point, part of this column, let’s call them the Left Wing, continued to ride toward the river, while the remaining body of troops, let’s call this group the Right Wing, stopped and assumed a supporting posture. The high ground closest to the river is Butler Ridge, which is approximately a quarter mile from the river. Nye-Cartwright Ridge is about a half mile from there, so it doesn’t seem likely that the Right Wing began firing volleys, until the Left Wing had crossed their front, and brought the attacking warriors within range of their carbines, say 300 yards. The total distance; therefore, is three quarters of a mile, so it isn’t unreasonable to assume that the Left Wing could move that distance, plus the mile they traveled as they retreated diagonally toward Calhoun Hill, in approximately 10 to 15 minutes. It is also reasonable to believe that they engaged the Indians across the river for 10 minutes or so, before they began falling back. Now, if during this time Reno was ascending the bluffs, and Benteen was near enough to witness his flight and meet-up with him 5 to 10 minutes later on Reno Hill, then there is enough approximation of time to allow for the troops on Reno Hill to hear the last few volleys of the Right Wing before it too moved to Calhoun Hill; furthermore, it also allows enough time for Custer to see troops arriving on the bluff. If this is what actually took place, then it is reasonable to believe that Custer assumed that this was Benteen’s outfit responding to his order to “come quick”. This scenario supports Elisabeth’s argument that Custer withdrew to Calhoun Hill to draw the warriors to him. Once Benteen attacks the warrior’s rear (So to speak), Custer mounts a counter attack, and the Indians are caught between the two attacking forces. It’s a textbook maneuver, and a highly plausible explanation for the physical evidence found on Nye-Cartwright Ridge.
Thank you for your consideration.
Nomad
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Post by One Tin Soldier on Aug 16, 2005 22:12:18 GMT -6
It would take about 12 minutes alone! ~ to get the 1 1/2 miles to Weir Peak, and that's from the 600 yards east position from where Martini said he departed. And even then he wouldn't necessarily have ridden over the top. More likely have skirted one of its flanks.
All I can say is if Tony is serious about this. Is for him to be prepared to defend every eventuality of time-motion events. And then do the research yourself! Others have tried, Gray, Michno etc. And of them perhaps Gray's is the most reliable, or I should say plausible. The only way you can possibly defend this theory is to do a time-motion analysis youself of your theory. Simply because no one else knows what you want the outcome to be! If you haven't studied Gray's analysis, start there, take a few pointers on how to do and then do your own. And they try to make every single time factor fit into the Motion/events in a surround way.
What seems implausible to your theory to me anyway is the Benteen factor. We know he was late, but if you succeed in this theory, he should have been riding a snail instead of a horse. Simply put it doesn't work! Just one of the few problems you are sure to encounter on your journey to truth. Good Luck!
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Post by elisabeth on Aug 17, 2005 3:04:11 GMT -6
On the timing front, let's not forget that Martini says his horse was tired when he started off -- and we know it then gets wounded en route. So however conscientiously he's trying to hurry, he's not going to be travelling at top speed.
Also, the descent of MTC won't have been at full gallop all the way; several Indians report that Custer's troops are galloping at first, but then slow to a trot. So perhaps add another minute or so to One Tin Soldier's estimate?
Again on timing: it wouldn't be surprising if Reno added a good five or ten minutes to each of his fights. It's only a guesstimate anyway, and he'll have been keen to make himself look as good as possible. (After all, that's what the whole Court of Inquiry was for.) Probably accounts for Martini's 'less than detailed observations', too. Poor guy, he's only a humble trumpeter, and he's caught in the crossfire of all these political/legal/regimental shenanigans; he's not going to risk the wrath of the brass by describing Reno's less than glorious 'defensive posture' in graphic detail. He tells the truth, but says as little as he can get away with. (Possibly even plays up his language difficulties, to evade too much close questioning!)
These are murky waters ...
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Post by shatonska on Aug 17, 2005 6:23:40 GMT -6
good points i had something , 600 y from the ford many indians say fire with troops began when these were farther away , at that distance cheyenne were on the route of martini back to weir , he escaped but how dould boston do it , he arrived at the 600y distance at least 10 minutes after martini left while custer was hotly engaged as martini testify and was already retreating as martini said do you knok what i think ? benteen and gibbon said sixteen hundred yards from the ford and martini understood six hundred yards , these 1000 yards ( that become 2000 going ( at a slow pace with custer) and returning ) make a lot of difference martini so could arrive at weir at least 15 minutes earlier and watch last part of valley fight , those minutes give time to bouyer to go on weir and see reno retreat and time to custer to separate the companies and move i am sure martini could not understand the difference between six and sixteen
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Post by elisabeth on Aug 17, 2005 6:44:52 GMT -6
That's possible!!
And he says that when he left, Co. E was 'in the centre'. Somehow they have to have time to have reached the front (for the Indians to see them) -- or, alternatively, for the whole regiment to form up in line of battle (which can't be, if troops are still 'on the ridges'). And THEN for a good 10 minutes' or so of firing back and forth across the river; and THEN for Custer to order the new deployment ... all before Martini can possibly see any sign of a retreat. However well-drilled they may be, this can't be done in mere seconds.
600 yards doesn't give much time, even at a trot rather than a gallop.
One other thing: what Martini reported as Custer 'retreating from the flat' need not have been anything more than the very first movements of E & F (or whoever it really was) away from the river. He'd only have had to see them turn their horses' heads to the north-east to ASSUME a retreat in that direction -- he certainly doesn't have to have seen the entire manoeuvre.
Does Benteen himself confirm this '600 yards' anywhere? I'll have a look and see if he says anything.
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Post by elisabeth on Aug 17, 2005 7:23:41 GMT -6
No, can't find anything in his narratives or the Benteen-Goldin letters ...
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Post by shatonska on Aug 17, 2005 7:37:03 GMT -6
another timing facto , if martini left at 600y and saw reno skirmish line in the valley this means that custer and reno were fighting at the same time , instead all indian testimonies ,tens of these , say that they saw custer on the bluffs east of the river while reno was retreating to reno hill , a difference of at least 25 minutes these 25 minutes at least are the time for martini to join benteen and go on reno hill were they saw the great mass of indians clearing the valley and going toward custer is impossible for lots of factor martini leaving custer 600y from the ford , shifting to sixteen hundred yards give us the possibility for a match with martini riding at a good pace , he said he never stopped ( these means difficulty in understand well what he saw , i think martini could only listen the small skirmish with wolf thoot cheyenne band and what he saw is the custer movement toward north on luce ridge , if he ever saw something) the 3 crows saw reno beaten in the valley so impossible for them to leave custer before martini , they left after martini but not under 600y otherwise they were with custer when he was engaged at the ford ,, but they said different , s they left after martini but before fire begun , everything shift martini leaving custer well before the 600y , 1600y can be the most possible answer , and this his a benteen supposition , an eye mesurement ,
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Post by One Tin Soldier on Aug 17, 2005 9:04:35 GMT -6
shatonska, elisabeth: Both very plausible explanations! If Benteen and Martini was 1600 yards instead of the 600 yards that would put it almost at the exact spot where Gray said it was. 1760 yards is a mile. This is 160 yards short of that mile from the 600 supposed yards where Martini said he departed. And a total of about 1 1/3 miles from the ford when Martini departed.
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Post by One Tin Soldier on Aug 17, 2005 9:44:08 GMT -6
It is and probably always will be very difficult to refute Gray. What he did for our genre is to open up a greater understanding to the events of that day. While what he did was outstanding and should be recognized as much. What can't be explained away is what happened after Martini left. Where he, Martini left is easily enough surmized, but what happened after is left to conjecture. All that can be done is try to understand those events in the timing produced by when the "shots" were heard from the soldiers, and then try to match those up with what the indians were trying to convey. A very difficult assignment indeed!
I would encourage Tony, and others too ~ to keep on trying to find the answers. It's a good thing to test ideas and theorys, and be open to suggestion. And it's free thinkers like him that will in all liklihood discover the truth. What one has to be very careful with is the time motion studies, expertly done, prior to Custer's decent into the "twilight zone"! Gray, Michno and others may be off some seconds/minutes on these "prior" events, but not by much!
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Post by elisabeth on Aug 17, 2005 12:13:30 GMT -6
Agree. It's great work, Gray's. And Michno too.
Nice, though, to think that there's room for the 'free thinkers' too! Of course, we'll never know for sure what IS 'the truth', even when someone's found it. But we'll know if it sounds right ...
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Post by shatonska on Aug 17, 2005 12:25:08 GMT -6
michno problem is the timing , too slow , cahloun fight ended about 17 ,when from reno hill intense was heard anymore , time for weir to gain weir point and at about 17,25 keogh fight ende too , at about 18 custer fight was over , companies returning on reno were not pressed initially but when rejoined on reno hill soon after 18 started being pressed by a great number of indians leaving custer fight remember that from reno hill volleys were heard from 16,25 and fire untill 17,15 (cahloun keogh) custer was too far to be heard , lsh fight lasted at least 30 minutes after keogh so we arrive until about 18 later i will post an account from weir point in camp notes than maybe can put a little lighton what was seen from weir at 17,30
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Post by shatonska on Aug 17, 2005 13:30:03 GMT -6
it is the account of Godfrey in Gray , godfrey arrived with benteen on weir point aome time after weir and tell us this : although the air was full of dust , we could see stationary groups and individual horsemen moving about and could tell they were indians... on custer field AND a hill 2 miles away, we saw a large assemblage , At first they appeared not to notice us, although some closer to us did. we heard occasional shots , most a great distance off and BEYOND the large group on the hill , We concluded custer had been REPULSED and that the firing was parting shots of the rear guard . the firing ceased . the group dispersed , clouds of dust appeared and the horsemen converged toward our position
if this is true there are some important thing to notice , first this is an image in movement who started for gray at 17.35 10 minutes after weir arrival , so there is a large group on a hill , not lsh probably cahloun , beyond this group distant shots are heard so on cahloun hill people were watching the fight on custer shots heard from weir appeared so distant that from reno were impossible to hear ( here we understand that from reno hill it was impossible to hear fighting on last stand hill) at about 17.40 mass on cahloun directs toward weir , now at least 15 minutes after weir arrival we can still not be sure battle was over , is the mass on the hill who charge companies on weir , not the warriors still or just finishing fighting custer To me all this is important because if from weir at 17,25 was seen the end of battle on custer hill , the north move at ford d is impossible there is n't the time to do it but the fact that fire on reno hill was heard until 17.25 ( on the base of what godfrey said this couldn't be custer but cahloun maybe keogh ) let me think that battle lasted until almost 18 on custer hill so the north move is possible
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Post by Tony on Aug 17, 2005 18:06:07 GMT -6
People, I think with all the post, we may have hit on something, and the answer is staring us right in the face. Lets forget at the moment the time line theory and cutting hairs for 5 or 10 minutes here or there--and look at the entire picture. Here goes: We have shown that Martini left Custer somewhere in MTC (at what point doesn't really matter) BEFORE Reno retreated to Reno Hill. Martini's ride proves that--THEREFORE Custer never knew Reno retreated to Reno Hill--the retreat did not occur yet. We also have shown that Custer was engaged and possibly retreating from ford "B" at the same time Reno was fighting in the Valley. Lets look at this statement: Custer sent a company or companies to the ford to either "hold it" or check for a suitable crossing. Whatever the reason, they go and subsequently retreat to Calhoun Hill. Now, the retreat had to be diagonal to Calhoun, or the rest of the command still on Luce could not have covered the retreat ( reason for all the casings there). Yates/Keogh (whoever you think went to the ford)) could not have retreated straight back to Luce, or the covering fire could not occur. Matter of fact, there was testimony from warriors that men on the high ridges were pointing to Calhoun Hill to the retreating troopers to go in that direction. The warriors where hot on their rear (no pun intended) and swarming across the ford. Now, Reno was in full retreat at this time, and warriors were seen by Custer on the East side of the river and at Weir vicinity and all around. When Reno reaches Reno Hill, I believe Custer sees troopers and believes it is Benteen coming to respond to his "come quick" message and not Reno. He may have seen Benteen as he arrived. Now, what do we have---Custer waiting for Benteen and sees him, or believes he sees him, on Reno Hill. The warriors pursuing Reno see Custer on Luce/East Rim--fits so far!!! Custer now knows that there are swarms of warriors on the East side blocking Benteen's approach to him via Cedar and Weir vicinity--SOOO what could he do? He has the company move North to reunite on Calhoun hoping to take the pressure of Benteen (who Custer believes is being attacked--not Reno--he still believes Reno is fighting in the Valley)--It was always thought that the move at ford "B" was to relieve pressure off Reno--not true--Custer has no idea that the troopers on Reno Hill is Reno. His move works beautifully--the warriors respond by leaving Reno Hill area and Benteen to attack Custer- leaving no warriors in Benteen's front---Custer believes that Benteen will now attack, and Custer will also attack from the North, catching them in a pincer movement--great--However, Benteen never moves, and the rest we know!!! One more point--Custer deploy es "C,L,&I" but takes "E&F" to Lsh to preclude the warriors from flanking him--he now sees the warriors streaming from Deep Ravine and circling North--he has no other choice.
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