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Post by elisabeth on Aug 16, 2005 4:41:30 GMT -6
One further thought: whatever we make of Martini's impact on our understanding of the timing, he could be the key in another way -- drawing attention to Boston Custer. As Prolar says, we know Boston got through. What we don't know for sure is the effect on Custer of Boston's news that Benteen was already en route; but we can guess that it's major. This in itself is likely to have been one big turning-point in Custer's plans. IF Curley is telling the truth, and Bouyer had also reported Reno's defeat, he's now going to have to rethink the whole thing. Being Custer, does he think 'retreat'? Or isn't it more likely that he thinks 'attack, but differently'?
Now ... it's always bothered me that they leave Ford B wide open. Impossible to believe they couldn't have held it for quite a while; equally impossible to believe they didn't foresee Indians dashing across in large numbers the moment they abandoned it. Taking Tony's scenario in the opening post in this thread, with the assumption that it's C, I & L 'holding' the ford: is it conceivable that they're not 'repulsed' at all, but deliberately falling back TO DRAW THE INDIANS IN? (Red Hawk's description and map, 'Lakota Noon' pp 135-136, could support that.) In other words, using the time-honoured Indian trick, and acting as decoys? They're drawing warriors away from the main village. They then deploy along the ridges NOT as a defensive line -- but to HOLD the Indians between them and the river. They're corralling them, as it were ... so that Benteen can then smash into them from the south. When he does, C & L can join him in driving them back, hopefully in disarray, across the ford and into the village, sweeping all before them. The position of Keogh and Co. I, which is otherwise so bafflingly passive, is thus (a) to co-ordinate the decoy/corral/support-of-Benteen action, and (b) once Benteen arrives, to detach and join Custer in his attack across Ford D, which he'll have found by then. The two shock forces squash the Indians between them like the meat in a sandwich -- or so they hope.
What do you reckon? Does this play? It does seem to explain a few things: their visibility on the ridges (currently being debated in another thread); Custer appearing to continue aggressive action even when the right wing is apparently in defensive mode; the lightness of the early firing; and the ease with which the Indians apparently 'force' the retreat. Plus leaving Ford B open. (Tony, you raised the question a while ago of Custer repeating a Civil War tactic he'd performed with Yates; the move I'm suggesting here is uncannily close to Keogh's experience at Gettysburg, with Buford, where they held the Confederates just where they wanted them until Meade could come up. Same logic?) The only flaw in the plan, and of course it's lethal, is Benteen's non-arrival -- which means they've drawn the entire force of the enemy to them with NO counterblow of their own in sight. Hence their downfall.
Feasible, do you think?
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Post by michigander1 on Aug 16, 2005 6:03:08 GMT -6
Yes. Very good Elisabeth.
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Post by shatonska on Aug 16, 2005 6:26:36 GMT -6
well said elisabeth , good points i think custer intended benteen to attack at ford b while he could move north , another thing on martini , he said he heard fire from his right when beside weir point , it fits with the fact that at that time reno was retreating from the valley , while reno goes to reno hill martini join benteen and then rejoin reno on reno hill , the timing fits , the fact is that martini never said he saw reno fighting in the valley , he heard shots to his right , the more likely this fire came from the reno retreat from the woods the boston action , boston joined custer before or during the small fight with the woolf thoot band ( the one who probably wounded martini's horse ), probably martini saw or heard this little fight and the movement of custer on luce or nye ridges , then creates the account on fight in the flat and retreating on cahloun ( at the time that was the custom custer movement , luce and nye ridge were know much later ) exagerating and misjudging the little he saw
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Post by Tony on Aug 16, 2005 8:46:48 GMT -6
I'll try and address all questions as best I can--of course my theories are as conjectured as anyone else-bottom line, we will never know what really occurred. Shatonska--Martini does state in the Reno trail that he saw Reno fighting in skirmish in the Valley when he reached Weir Hill. He also said that he didn't pay much attention to it. Could he have been wrong? Sure. But I think he was militarily minded enough to notice a skirmish line in progress. This is not to say that what he saw may have been misinterpreted in his mind. You state that the Crows saw Reno retreat before Martini was sent back. Well we know that is impossible just by Martini's ride. Martini passed Reno Hill unabated before Reno even thought of retreating to that Hill. Prolar--yes your right. Boston must have reached Custer before he retreated and was surrounded. But I don't recall at this time if Martini said he met Boston first before he rode on and turned and saw Custer retreat from the flat at the ford. If he met Boston first, it could have given Boston enough time to reach Luce/Carwright BEFORE Custer retreated from the flat. Remember, that meting took place only over the next divide. And yes, the story of Custer watching Reno retreat is absurd--we know from all events that it would have been impossible! Liz-Yes you make perfect sense. I have learned that over time ones memory plays tricks on what one allegedly saw years before. Other testimony could leave one doubting your own recollection and sometimes altering your own version. How many times have you seen an even, and then years later someone tells a different version and then you say "Wait a minute, is he right? Could I have been wrong?" You start doubting yourself and maybe change what you saw! It happens all the time. But, as for Reno in the Valley, I still thing Martini was bright enough (even though he wasn't the sharpest knife in the box) to understand a skirmish line. However, again, he could have seen a number of things and misread what he saw. The mind is a funny thing It registers what you perceive at that moment and will recall only those incidents that make a lasting impression, or that which you perceive to be important to you. Everyone can remember events from their childhood that was traumatic an forget events that were trivial to that person---but may be important to others--am I rambling on too much? Anyway, Martini is extremely important as to when Custer was engaged, because it lends truth to or discredits all other accounts--do you agree?
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Post by elisabeth on Aug 16, 2005 9:04:48 GMT -6
Agree, with caveats both as to Martini's interpretation of what he saw, and questioners' own interpretations For instance, Gray, in 'Custer's Last Campaign' (p. 347), points out that Martini only said Reno was fighting 'in skirmish formation' -- and that this could equally have meant Reno was fighting in the timber (which fits Gray's timeline).
Agree totally that he's just about the only witness whose truthfulness we can be sure of!
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Post by Tony on Aug 16, 2005 9:16:31 GMT -6
Liz--I'm glad someone agrees with me on this. With response to Grays interpretation, I was always a little skeptical of his time line and events. He seems to bend them to his own theory. And, who's to say that his timing was right. He predicates his time line on troopers looking at their watches during certain events--who's to say their watches were right. One thing I have learned, if you have 5 people with watches and ask them when an even took place, you'll get 5 different times. As for Reno in the timber, do you agree that if that were the case, Martini would have said timber--you don't have a skirmish line in timber--you protect the perimeter--thats not a skirmish line--so what could Martini mean--he had to mean skirmish in the Valley--I could be wrong--what do you think?
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Post by elisabeth on Aug 16, 2005 9:51:43 GMT -6
I don't know, the wording allows either interpretation. This is his evidence to the Reno Court of Inquiry: "I went back 3/4 mile from where I left Custer and saw Reno fighting in the valley. Yes, his line was deployed as skirmishers". I don't have the full text of the C. of I -- maybe someone else does? -- but it appears as if the lawyer has asked him either "was he in skirmish formation?" or "could you see how he was deployed?", something like that. In keeping with that habit of Martini's that we've encountered elsewhere, of answering only the literal question and no more, he doesn't elaborate. So could be open valley, could be timber!
I do agree that some of Gray's timings are mind-numbingly precise. I'd be very nervous of relying on some event having occurred at, say, 4.13 precisely! And his speed calculations assume all horses travel at uniform speed, regardless of whether uphill or on the flat, whether fresh or tired, etc. But overall I think his work is incredibly useful. The trouble is, it's so VERY convincing that if one isn't careful, one finds oneself treating it as the definitive and unquestionable truth even in matters where he himself freely admits he's speculating -- such as which companies were in which wing in Custer's battalion (and indeed even whether there truly was a splitting of forces).
We do have evidence from Godfrey that officers synchronised their watches at the officers' call on June 22nd -- but you're right, who knows whose watch kept perfect time and whose watch didn't!
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Post by shatonska on Aug 16, 2005 9:58:06 GMT -6
tony , the problem is that everybody said many different things , some fits other not , gray is good not for the exact timing but for the interpolations , martini fits with gray , there is only the problem of martini leaving custer 600yards from the ford b , custer probably never was at that place , so near to the ford but one question for you tony martini jumps completely the luce nye mouvements he heard fire but the volleys ? these were on luce and nye at 16.25 or after reno retreat if you don't like timing if you believe martini custer retreated on cahloun then came back on luce and nye for these volleys , you can see that is impossible martini saw custer retreat towards cahloun but don't hear volleys in that moment , volleys that are heard on reno hill when martini arrived there with benteen , you can say these were volleys from cahloun but there is the fact of the hundreds of cases on luce and nye this fact shows that martini left much before , in time to see reno fight and to arrive with benteen on reno hill and listen to the vlleys on luce
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Post by Tony on Aug 16, 2005 10:52:49 GMT -6
Shatonska--I'm not sure what point your making, but if I am correct you are saying that first, Custer was never within 600 yards of the ford, and secondly that Martini left Custer in time to see Reno fight in the Valley. If so, then there is evidence to show that Martini showed Benteen exactly where he was sent back from and Benteen estimated it as approximately 600 yards from the river--agreeing with Martini--thats hard to ignore. Benteen made note of that.--As for Martini to leave in time to see Reno fighting in the Valley--thats exactly what I have been saying--Martini saw Reno in the Valley in skirmish position after he left Custer and allegedly after Custer was engaged. Reno had not yet retreated to Reno Hill--so how could Custer know he retreated, if the retreat did not even happen yet? As for the volleys--I think those volleys were fired from Calhoun and not from Luce. The casings found on Luce might have been from troopers firing to cover Keogh or Yates retreat ( which ever you believe went to the ford)-if you buy into that theory--or could have been casing fired from captured rifles by Indians at troopers on Calhoun Hill--or a combination of both--I believe the volleys were fired from Calhoun at warriors closing in.--after all, isn't that what volley fire is all about--to stop attack!
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Post by Tony on Aug 16, 2005 10:59:14 GMT -6
Liz--I wounder if Martini could have seen Reno's men in skirmish in the timber (through trees)? In timber, wouldn't men be deployed around the perimeter to protect from penetration (no pun intended)? I still think Martini meant what he said--skirmish in open ground!!
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Post by crzhrs on Aug 16, 2005 13:15:15 GMT -6
THE CUSTER MYTH:
Just before he got to a hill he met Boston Custer. Then going to the hill, Martini said he saw Reno's battalion in action. It had only been ten or fifteen minutes since he left Custer and Indians were riding around and shooting at Reno's men, who were dismounted and in skirmish line . . . "the last time I saw Reno's men they were fighting in the valley and the line was falling back."
He then found Benteen and told him that the Indians (who were in the village) were running and "I suppose that by this time he (Custer) had charged through the village."
From Reno COI:
I got on the same ridge where Gen. Custer saw the village. I looked down and saw that Maj. Reno's battalion was engaged. I went on to about 300 or 400 yards above the watering place and met Capt. Benteen. Benteen asked where the General was and I said I supposed that by that time he had made a charge through the village.
Martini never stated that Reno's men were retreating. He did state they were falling back. So he must have saw them leaving the skirmish line and falling back to the timber.
Custer was not engaged "fully" and that is the important part until most of the warriors left Reno. Custer may have been advancing, feeling out the terrain and strength of the warriors, planning as he went. Once Reno starts his "charge" to his hill, then things turned suddenly dangerous for Custer's command, which by now may have been separated even further. Then when the strength of the Indians increased Custer did not have enough time to regroup fully, or change tactics.
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Post by Tony on Aug 16, 2005 13:43:14 GMT -6
Crzhrs---exactly what I have been stating--Martini saw Reno in skirmish line in the Valley--could be just as they were retreating to the timber--none the less they were still in the Valley--now, Martini says that before this he sees Custer retreating from ford "B" to the battlefield--if we believe him, then Custer was engaged and falling back at the same time Reno is in skirmish and possibly falling back to the timber. Custer could not have known reno retreated to Reno Hill or retreated at all. Now, I'm going to through us all off by this tidbit--Who then did Derudio see as Reno was pulling back into the timber. And who was waving his hat at that time. We now have 3 possibilities--Derudio says he saw Custer and Cook and Custer waves his hat just as Reno is about to pull into the timber. Custer suddenly disappears. We now have Martini who states that he is passing over Weir and Reno is in skirmish and possibly just retreating into the timber. Boyer according to Curley sees Reno retreat and waves his hat to Custer who is in MTC---all at the same time and place--a lot of hat waving!!
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Post by shatonska on Aug 16, 2005 14:32:36 GMT -6
Shatonska--I'm not sure what point your making, but if I am correct you are saying that first, Custer was never within 600 yards of the ford, and secondly that Martini left Custer in time to see Reno fight in the Valley. If so, then there is evidence to show that Martini showed Benteen exactly where he was sent back from and Benteen estimated it as approximately 600 yards from the river--agreeing with Martini--thats hard to ignore. Benteen made note of that.--As for Martini to leave in time to see Reno fighting in the Valley--thats exactly what I have been saying--Martini saw Reno in the Valley in skirmish position after he left Custer and allegedly after Custer was engaged. Reno had not yet retreated to Reno Hill--so how could Custer know he retreated, if the retreat did not even happen yet? As for the volleys--I think those volleys were fired from Calhoun and not from Luce. The casings found on Luce might have been from troopers firing to cover Keogh or Yates retreat ( which ever you believe went to the ford)-if you buy into that theory--or could have been casing fired from captured rifles by Indians at troopers on Calhoun Hill--or a combination of both--I believe the volleys were fired from Calhoun at warriors closing in.--after all, isn't that what volley fire is all about--to stop attack! on luce and nye were found hundreds of soldier cases , soldiers horshoes and many ather soldiers related things i intend that custer remained on luce and nye ridges , these lies more than 600yards from the ford if i recall well custer was seen from reno soldiers in the skirmish line ,a line that lasted a maximum 15 minutes majority says less than 10 , in this few minurtes martini went to 600yards from the ford and came back to weir , very very fast , my only point of discussion is this , i think martini came back earlier so fits what he saw and fts the fact that he didn't ear the volleys on luce nye ridges , but maybe things went as you say tony , i'm certain of nothing
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Post by crzhrs on Aug 16, 2005 14:58:05 GMT -6
Tony:
At the Reno COI, DeRudio said he recognized Custer waving his hat and apparently cheering on Reno. DeRudio said he recognized Custer and Cooke by their clothing, both wore blue shirts and buckskins, plus DeRudio noticed Cooke's side-whiskers. Some eyesight!
John Gray said that Pvt. Petring saw Custer across the river, waving his hat. He stated: "There goes Cuser. He is up to something, for he is waving his hat." Gray also said Martini stated: ". . . Custer pulled of his hat and waved it: 'Courage boys, we have got them.'"
Later Gray states that Curly said: "Custer and Tom Custer returned signals by waving hats . . ."
Curly also said he and Boyer were on Weir Hill, saw Reno's retreat and Boyer signaled to Custer. Curly did not say how he signaled. I can only assume with his hat. So another hat-waver!
Yes . . . a lot of hat-waving going on and apparently spotted by a number of soldiers. At what time each saw the hat-waving may be the important question.
I may need an aspirin to figure out who and what time all the hat-waving was going on!
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Post by One Tin Soldier on Aug 16, 2005 15:11:12 GMT -6
Shatonska It is about 1 1/6th mile from MTF to the base or beginnings of Luce ridge. It is about 1 2/3rds mile to Nye=Cartwright ridge from MTF. From Martini's supposed 600 yard position - approximatly 1/3rd mile away from MTF. These then were respectively 5/6th of a mile and 1 1/3rd mile from where Tony claims Martini departed from Custer. This position is by the way within easy sight of MTF area, on the eastern slope of MTC going down hill towards MTF.
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