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Post by gocav76 on Nov 27, 2007 19:54:24 GMT -6
From the following site, which offers an original autograph of Rain in the Face for sale. www.lonestarautographs.com/Images/11919_sig.jpg In a remarkable interview with W. Kent Thomas, Rain-In-The-Face (who was at Coney Island, N.Y. on August 12, 1894, where the "Custer Indians" were taken following the World's Fair) gave the following very remarkable account of the Battle of Little Big Horn, in part: (Thomas wrote the following in his diary) "Rain-In-The-Face hobbled into the tent tonight, as McFadden & I were discussing the events of the day, and seating himself, unbidden, with true Indian stoicism, he grunted out that one word of all words so dear to a Lakota, "Minnewaukan!" which, literally translated, means "Water of God", but which, by usage, has been interpreted as "fire water". Since the other Indians were away from camp on a visit to their friends, the Oglalas, at Buffalo Bill's Camp, I decided to yield for once to Rain's oft-repeated demand, which had been hitherto as regularly denied. He took my flask, and with a guttural "How" drained it at one gulp, without straining a muscle of his face. "Ugh! Good! like Rain's heart," he remarked. With respect to the Custer Massacre, McFadden & Thomas wanted to know the details thereof and how he took Tom Custer's heart. McFadden, who was quite an artist, made an imaginary sketch of "Custer's Last Charge". He handed it to Rain, saying: "Does this look anything like the fight?" Rain studied it a long time, and then burst out laughing. "No," he said, "this picture is a lie. These long swords have swords -- they never fought us with swords, but with guns and revolvers. These men are on ponies - they fought us on foot, and every fourth man held the others' horses. That's always their way of fighting. We tie ourselves onto our ponies and fight in a circle. These people are not dressed as we dress in a fight. They look like agency Indians - we strip naked and have ourselves and our ponies painted. This picture gives us bows and arrows. We were better armed than the long swords. Their guns wouldn't shoot but once - the thing wouldn't throw out the empty cartridge shells. (In this he was historically correct, as dozens of guns were picked up on the battle-field by General Biggon's command two days after with the shells still sticking in them, showing that the ejector wouldn't work.) When we found they could not shoot we saved our bullets by knocking the long swords over with our war clubs- it was just like killing sheep. Some of them got on their knees and begged; we spared none --ugh! This picture is like all the white man's pictures of Indians, a lie. I will show you how it looked." Then turning it over, he pulled out a stump of a lead pencil from his pouch & drew a map of the battle. Regarding the massacre, Rain said: "I had sung the war song, I had smelt the powder smoke. My heart was bad -- I was like one that has no mind. I rushed in and took their flag; my pony fell dead as I took it. I cut the thong that bound me. I jumped up and brained the long sword flag man with my war club, and ran back to our line with the flag... The long sword's blood and brains splashed in my face. It felt hot, and blood ran in my mouth. I could taste it. I was mad. I got a fresh pony and rushed back, shooting, cutting, and slashing. The pony was shot, and I got another.... This time I saw Little Hair (Tom Custer). I remembered my vow. I was crazy; I feared nothing. I knew nothing would hurt me, for I had my white weasel-tail charm on. (He wears the charm to this day.) I don't know how many I killed trying to get at him. He knew me. I laughed at him and yelled at him. I saw his mouth move, but there was so much noise I couldn't hear his voice. He was afraid. When I got near enough I shot him with my revolver. My gun was gone, I don't know where. I leaped from my pony and cut out his heart and bit a piece out of it and spit it in his face. I got back on my pony and rode off shaking it. I was satisfied and sick of fighting; I didn't scalp him." "I didn't go back on the field after that. The squaws came up afterward and killed the wounded, cut their boot legs off for moccasin soles, and took their money, watches and rings. They cut their fingers off to get them quicker. They hunted for Long Yellow Hair to scalp him, but could not find him. He didn't wear his fort clothes (uniform), his hair had been cut off, and the Indians didn't know him." [Notwithstanding his "white weasel-tail charm," Rain-In-The-face was wounded in this battle. A bullet pierced his right leg above the knee. He was lame and had to walk on crutches all his life thereafter.] At the time of the interview, 1894, "Rain-In-The-face (Itiomagaju) is about sixty years of age now, and is the only chief that survives to tell the tale of the Custer fight. Gall and Sitting Bull have both gone to hunt the white buffalo long since. Rain can write his name in English. I taught him to do it at the World's Fair in order to sell Longfellow's poem, entitled "The Revenge of Rain-In-The-Face." He doesn't know the significance of it after he writes it. His knowledge of English is confined to about thirty words, but he can't say them so any one can understand him though he can understand almost anything that is said in English. Like all other Indians, his gratitude is for favors to come and not for favors already shown. He is utterly heartless and unprincipled, physically brave but morally a coward. His redeeming feature lies in the fact that you can depend upon any promise he makes, but it takes a world of patience to get him to promise anything. Even at the age of sixty he is still a Hercules. In form and face he is the most pronounced type of the ideal Fenimore Cooper, dime novel Indian in America." It was also claimed that "Rain-In-The-face" killed General Custer, which he would neither confirm nor deny. www.lonestarautographs.com/Images/11919_2.jpg
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Post by clw on Nov 28, 2007 10:26:12 GMT -6
True or not, that's one hell (literally) of a story. Thanks, gocav
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Post by harpskiddie on Nov 28, 2007 11:19:41 GMT -6
clw/gocav:
The Kent Thomas story is perhaps the best known of the Rain stories [except the "arrest" accounts and the Longfellow poem]. I always thought the most telling commentary on the legitimacy of the story is contained within it - "His knowledge of English is confined to about thirty words, but he can't say them so any one can understand him....."
In the article, which appeared in Outdoor Life, March 1903, Rain also claimed to have killed "the sutler and a horse medicine man" during Custer's 1873 Yellowstone campaign: "One morning I saw the sutler and a horse medicine man go out to a spring; Long Yellow Hair and his men were riding back about 100 yards. I rushed up and shot the sutler and brained the horse medicine man with my war club; then I shot them full of arrows and cut off some buttons. Long Yellow Hair heard the shoit and his troop charged back. I didn't have time to scalp the men I got.; I jumped on my pony and yelled at them to catch me. They chased me to the Cannon Ball. Charlie Reynolds knew me and told Long Yellow Hair who did this brave deed."
"Next winter I went to the agency store at Standing Rock.....Little Hair had thirty long swords there. He slipped up behind me like a squaw, when my back was turned. They all piled on me at once; they threw me in a sick wagon and held me down till they got me to the guard-room at Lincoln."
"I was treated like a squaw....I told Little Hair that I would get away some time; I wasn't ready then: when I did, I would cut out his heart and eat it. I was chained to a white man. One night I got away. They fired at us, but we ran and hid on the bank of the Hart River in the brush. The white man cut the chains with a knife. They caught him the next day."
"I rejoined Sitting Bull and Gall. They were afraid to come and get me there. I sent Little Hair a picture, on a piece of buffalo skin, of a bloody heart. He knew I didn't forget my vow. Thew next time I saw Little Hair, ugh! I got his heart. I have said all."
[One witness then showed Rain a sketch he had done of "Custer's Last Charge," and asked if it the fight had looked anything like the sketch].............................
There is more to the story, but it all runs in the same vein. There are several glaring errors, which cannot be written off to a faulty memory, since Rain seemed to remember else quite well, and he was hardly an old man in 1894, when he supposedly told the story. For one thing, he reports that the Rees with Custer were singing their death songs, but of course, we know that the Rees were not on the ridges with Custer, in fact no Indian Scouts were. He also states that the camps moved north to get away from Terry and Gibbon, whereas it was actually the other direction.
And then we have the evidence of several witnesses that, although horribly mutilated and disemboweled, Tom Custer's heart was not cut out. As clw says, a hell of a story. James McLaughlin was named as the translator.
Gordie MC mostly crabby...........................................................................
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Post by crzhrs on Nov 28, 2007 13:07:24 GMT -6
I like Rain-in-the-Face's name for Tom C . . . "Little Hair".
Since Indians grew their hair for various reasons, one for the "machismo" effect, I can see RITF using "little hair" as an insult.
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Post by bc on Nov 28, 2007 13:32:44 GMT -6
I guess that is his "story" and he is sticking to it. It is another one of those stories that we all have to consider and then decide what weight and credit to give to it. I guess by Gen. Biggon you meant Gibbon unless there is some story about a nickname for Gibbon by those who knew how he was endowed.
I suppose there should be some stockade records from FAL to double check his story. I suppose some of it, such as the Rees singing, could be second hand info. Also if he says they never identified GAC, then what about the squaw who said she poked the needle in his ears and otherwise didn't mutilate him?
You don't suppose that Rain-in-the-Face and John C. Lockwood got together for a few TGIFs at the local Bismarck town pump, do you?
What is his autograph worth? Maybe at the 2009 conference I can charge everyone a price to shake the hand of someone who shook the hand of the son of Geronimo. Back in 1957 when I was a kid, we stopped at a roadside station in the mountains in by Ruidoso, NM. Inside seated at a table was the son of Geronimo, an old man then, who was charging a dime to shake his hand. My uncle paid the dime for me to get the handshake. What is the value of a second hand handshake with the son of Geronimo today considering inflation?
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Post by grahamew on Nov 28, 2007 13:45:30 GMT -6
According to Charles Eastman, Rain denied cutting out and eating Tom Custer's heart, adding, "Why, in that fight the excitement was so great that we scarcely recognised our friends."
DeCost Smith discussed the events with Rain (early 1880s?) and didn't believe he'd cut out and eaten Tom Custer's heart. Although he refused to confirm or deny it, he was under the distinct impression that it was the first time Rain had heard about this!
Captain Myles Moylan, A Company, 7th Cavalry was James Calhoun's brother in law and he wrote to the latter's wife about the Tom's burial. Although he talls about mutilations to the extent he couldn't tell if he'd been shot or not, he doubted the heart had been removed.
David F. Barry, who knew Rain well, said he "investigated" the story "and did it early" (a key point, I suspect) and "found out it was not true."
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Post by gocav76 on Nov 28, 2007 14:06:12 GMT -6
In the Charles Eastman account, Rain-in -the -Face says the white leader had a "sword". www.astonisher.com/archives/museum/rain_face_little_big_horn.html In the Kent Thomas account he says ""No," he said, "this picture is a lie. These long swords have swords -- they never fought us with swords, but with guns and revolvers." In the Thomas account Rain-in -the Face is drinking alcohol, perhaps he became unguarded in his statements and opened up a little. But who knows. His autograph sells for 15,000 dollars!
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Post by gocav76 on Nov 28, 2007 14:17:04 GMT -6
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Post by bc on Nov 28, 2007 14:38:04 GMT -6
In the Charles Eastman account, Rain-in -the -Face says the white leader had a "sword". www.astonisher.com/archives/museum/rain_face_little_big_horn.html In the Kent Thomas account he says ""No," he said, "this picture is a lie. These long swords have swords -- they never fought us with swords, but with guns and revolvers." I suppose you can differentiate between one person, the leader having a sword, and not the entire command having swords. I don't know that these statements by RITF are conflicting. I can think of many battles where the officers used their swords to lead while the rest of the troops didn't.
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Post by gocav76 on Nov 28, 2007 14:50:38 GMT -6
bc, The reason I posted the sword or sabre comment, is from what I've read - not one single sabre was present with Custer's five companies. Thus the two statements are conflicting---unless someone in Custer's command was waving a riding crop or rifle around , and from a distance it looked like a sabre.
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Post by clw on Nov 28, 2007 14:54:32 GMT -6
Pretty sure I've heard tell there was at least one sword that made it to the LBH. De Rudio? Something about a private war on snakes?
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Post by harpskiddie on Nov 28, 2007 16:45:23 GMT -6
My personal feeling is that Rain was not mistaken, or slightly less than sober, or lying or whatever. I have doubts that the interview ever took place. McLaughlin, for instance would not have used the term "horse doctor" to describe Dr. Honsinger, regardless of how Rain would have described him. He would have said "veterinarian," just as he used the word "sutler" for Mr. Baliran. Rain would not have called him a sutler, he would have called him a man who traded with the troops or something like that.
Gordie MC missed completion [date]..........................................................
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Post by bc on Nov 28, 2007 16:51:45 GMT -6
Thanks gocav. I learned something about the swords. It makes me wonder though, did they leave them all at FAL? Or did any officers and troopers for that matter leave their swords with the packs? I'm not sure about this entire campaign, but usually officers have their personal accoutrements and extra horses along somewhere with a pack or wagon train which was a luxury the enlisted men didn't usually have. (As I harken back to yesteryear, I do recall something about the troops not carrying swords but I'm not sure about the officers. Unfortunately, all the knowledge I possess of the LBH battle is stored in my little toe so I do have some lapses now and then.) It just seems to me that Custer would be sabre in hand type of guy when going into battle but I don't know about the LBH. I think the movie has Errol Flynn breaking his watch fob and leaving his watch with Libbie for the first time ever in a campaign but it didn't say anything about his sabre.
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Post by harpskiddie on Nov 28, 2007 17:11:59 GMT -6
bc:
He had his saber in his hand when he was killed by Anthony Quinn, errruh Crazy Horse. That's in the film. Now speaking of hands -
I am a noted collector of fingers and ears [it's a long and rather boring story], and have always thought of branching out.
Geronimos son!!!?!!! Have you washed that hand since??!!??! I am willing to pay good money to shake your hand. How about a buck thirty-seven? Now for the hand - that's a horse of another color, or a hand of another whatever. I will give you five bucks for that hand, plus I will pay the postage to have it mailed to me and whatever duties might be payable at the border.*
Gordie MC maximum cost...............*not to exceed fifty dollars total, and must be in time for Christmas.....
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montea
Junior Member
Posts: 87
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Post by montea on Dec 7, 2008 22:50:24 GMT -6
Danger, Danger, Will Robinson! All that talk about shaking hands with Geronimo caused me to upchuck a poem:
I Met a Man Who Knew a Man
I met a man who knew a man who rode with Clarke Quantrill and another guy who shook the hand of the real live Buffalo Bill. In Virginia there’s a widow, of a man who served Robert E. Lee, and in Austin there’s a daughter of a man born in slavery. A preacher in northern Montana was there when a baby was born whose Oglalla grandfather counted coup at Little Big Horn, and my own grandfather used to go on sprees with devil rum, and got drunk some with Temple, Sam Houston’s youngest son. When bound in books, inflicted in school, or aped on a movie screen, our history’s as distant as outer space and dead as a mausoleum, but as near as the nearest retirement home; as close as the family tree, our past is there for the touching, as alive as you or me.
MA
"Well, a book is more mobile than a tombstone, for one thing."
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