Psychological Implications Effecting the Battle

[Walt Cross]

I have no interest in discussing veneral disease.

Walt

[twomoons]

Yes, a disgusting subject indeed. But if I may. I think the point was, that if this was the case, then was Custer affected by it? Was he cured or not? By the sound of it, if it affected his brain, then the psychological impacts could explain some of the reasons for his actions. It just seems to me that he wasn't as sharp later on in making rational decisions. Was this or could this have been a contributing factor?

One other thought comes to mind with this is, how wide spread was it amoung the troops as a whole? Riding in a saddle for long periods of time tend to upset mother natures delicate balance anyway! Riding for long periods of time would have exacerbated the situation, not helped it! Their discomfort would have been excrutiating to say the least. How much of a factor would this have been in their performance? Lt. Col. Custer included.

The disgusting nature of the subject is of course valid, but also true and just as valid is the possibility of it being true. Medical records of the period may help to shed light upon this.

[Tricia]

Twomoons said:

Yes, a disgusting subject indeed. But if I may. I think the point was, that if this was the case, then was Custer affected by it? Was he cured or not? By the sound of it, if it affected his brain, then the psychological impacts could explain some of the reasons for his actions. It just seems to me that he wasn't as sharp later on in making rational decisions. Was this or could this have been a contributing factor?

One other thought comes to mind with this is, how wide spread was it amoung the troops as a whole? Riding in a saddle for long periods of time tend to upset mother natures delicate balance anyway! Riding for long periods of time would have exacerbated the situation, not helped it! Their discomfort would have been excrutiating to say the least. How much of a factor would this have been in their performance? Lt. Col. Custer included.

The disgusting nature of the subject is of course valid, but also true and just as valid is the possibility of it being true. Medical records of the period may help to shed light upon this.

Twomoons and Walt--

Yeah, the vd angle can tend to get boring and gross.

I tend to think GAC wasn't syphilic after receiving treatment--Libbie certainly outlived him, by over fifty years--which I don't think would happen should she have come in contact with that particular disease process. Nor have I detected a mental slide on her part. If anything is more likely, she might have developed PID (from the clap) if the treatment her husband received while still a student at WP didn't entirely work.

The only thing that interests me in the matter is how disease (any disease) might have effected the command structure and the decisions taken by it ... but IMHO, GAC's psychological pattern had pretty much been in place since almost right after the ACW. Circumstances after the war tended to bring the more negative aspects to the forefront, as opposed to the act of prosecuting the war--the battles had been so time consuming, there was little time for the "personal." If GAC (or anyone else for that matter) was lucky, he had time to eat and maybe get a little sleep--but that was about it during the active pursuit of the Rebels.

Regards,
Leyton McLean

[bigpond]

Reading the comments above about sexual diseases,which I may add,that I havn't a clue about
How does this tie in with the Cheyenne girl Meotzi/Monaseetah who gave birth to a daughter by Custer.
So one must assume he was still capable of producing a family at that time[after the Washita:Camp Supply]
Does this suggest that it may have been a problem for Libbie ?

[bigpond]

Although Reno was 2nd in command,does anybody think,he was given the job to charge the village by Custer,as a retribution for getting the earlier scout,and of course disobeying orders following the trail further than told.Would he be vindictive as that in his present condition ?

[Rabble]

bigpond said:

Meotzi/Monaseetah who gave birth to a daughter by Custer

Monaseetah had a son about two months after being captured at Washita - definitely not Custer's! Whether or not her second child, also a son, probably born at Fort Hays, was Custer's, is open to speculation, though I think the fact that she "shared his bed" is indisputable.

[Tricia]

bigpond said:

Although Reno was 2nd in command,does anybody think,he was given the job to charge the village by Custer,as a retribution for getting the earlier scout,and of course disobeying orders following the trail further than told.Would he be vindictive as that in his present condition ?

No, in that aspect, GAC DID follow standard tactical procedure--at least from what I understand of the matter. Perhaps someone who has a copy of the 1874 Tactical Manual can chime in.

Regards,
Leyton McLean

[Tricia]

Rabble said:

Monaseetah had a son about two months after being captured at Washita - definitely not Custer's! Whether or not her second child, also a son, probably born at Fort Hays, was Custer's, is open to speculation, though I think the fact that she "shared his bed" is indisputable.

Monaseetah's descendants admit that the second child was part-Anglo--but that is as far as they go in regards to the kid's father (according to Rod Thomas).

Regards,
Leyton McLean

[twomoons]

Leyton ~ "Circumstances after the war tended to bring the more negative aspects to the forefront, as opposed to the act of prosecuting the war--the battles had been so time consuming, there was little time for the "personal." If GAC (or anyone else for that matter) was lucky, he had time to eat and maybe get a little sleep--but that was about it during the active pursuit of the [indian] Rebels."

This was another psychological factor that I feel was very important to understanding what happened before and during the battle. The troops had started about 5am on the 24th and then marched all day with some stops, until about 7:45pm that evening. Then the troops were up again and on a night march that began at approximataly 12:30 am of the 25th. It was noted in Grays book. " This exasperating night march postponed sleep and filled the air with expletives and the accounts with exaggerations and discord." And was also noted that when halts were called for that the soldiers napped in their saddles on horseback! All in all they had marched for two days without much sleep and little time to digest what food they could get during the halts. If naps or even if some were trying to sleep it wasn't a comfortable and resting one!!!


bigpond ~ "How does this tie in with the Cheyenne girl Meotzi/Monaseetah who gave birth to a daughter by Custer.
So one must assume he was still capable of producing a family at that time[after the Washita:Camp Supply]
Does this suggest that it may have been a problem for Libbie ?"

The question was, did Libbie know of it? To say that she didn't I think would be wrong. These kinds of problems and the extended time away on the expedition would have likely made him have anxiety and depression problems.


bigpond ~ "Although Reno was 2nd in command,does anybody think,he was given the job to charge the village by Custer,as a retribution for getting the earlier scout,and of course disobeying orders following the trail further than told.Would he be vindictive as that in his present condition ?"

I think the answer to that comes at the time Custer departed from his plan to follow Reno. According to Gray, Custer ordered Reno to charge the village at 2:43pm. Reno's men moved out and reached the north fork of Reno Cr. at 2:47, Custer followed and arrived there just 4 minutes later at 2:51. Reno proceeded on and reached the LBH at 2:53, just 2 minutes after Custer reached the north fork. At this time they were just a few minutes apart. Cooke at around this time returns to tell Custer the Indians are attacking, again he is just minutes away from Custer. Reno Charges down the left side of the LBH at 3:01 and Custer turns and marches down the right side at 3:03. What changed? Why didn't Custer follow Reno? What did Cooke tell him that could have changed his mind?

Rabble ~ "Whether or not her second child, also a son, probably born at Fort Hays, was Custer's, is open to speculation, though I think the fact that she "shared his bed" is indisputable."

A very depressing, anxiety ridden situation for Custer. And whether or not Libbie knew of it or not would have been a moot point. His guilt of knowing it, would have made things worse not better for him. And trying to hide it from Libbie would have been no better than her knowing of it!


Leyton ~ "Monaseetah's descendants admit that the second child was part-Anglo--but that is as far as they go in regards to the kid's father (according to Rod Thomas)."

Indeed, fuel to fan the flames!

[bigpond]

Twomoon,
I think there was more than a chance that Custer went for the non coms,since the warriors were fighting,rather than scattering.
He could make his way North,capture the non-coms and force the warriors to give up there fight.
The only snag being ,could Reno hold out.[no doubt he remembered Elliott at the washita]
If you take Grays time lines as gosple,then Benteen at a full gallop[without pacts] could maybe have caught up with Custer at MTC.
Benteen then I assume would charge over MTC into the village,whilst Custer crept North toward ford D.
I think if this did happen,Reno could have been KIA,maybe Benteen too,and that let the Custer clan to claim all the glory.To him it didn't matter the cost in lives,as long as it was not his own familys.

[twomoons]

I'm not quite sure i'd say, that I take Grays timeline as gospel. I take issue with some of his timelines, especially those concerning his interpretaion of events after Custers battalion left for MTF. What is usefull in them, is his timing between events. These provide alot of detail about what is possible and what is not.

The short time, between the time Custer ordered Reno to charge the village, and his decision not to follow Reno, is all to short to make such decisions rational. Was this Custer's devious plan from the beginning? Was it Custer's intention not to support Reno from the beginning, and if it was, then your question of retribution and vindictiveness may be valid, and at the very least should be explored.

Your statement quoted below indeed shows the incompetence of Custer's decision. And one that is evident, a hurried one at that. He like you, wouldn't have known.

"If you take Grays time lines as gosple,then Benteen at a full gallop[without pacts] could maybe have caught up with Custer at MTC.
Benteen then I assume would charge over MTC into the village,whilst Custer crept North toward ford D.
I think if this did happen,Reno could have been KIA,maybe Benteen too,and that let the Custer clan to claim all the glory.To him it didn't matter the cost in lives,as long as it was not his own familys."

If these were within Custer's thoughts, and who knows, then yes it shows something more than a calleous disregard for life. And if that was the case, it wasn't bravery that was motivating him that day. It bordered upon something called paranoia!

[Tricia]

Twomoons--

I'll agree that tiredness was a factor--to an extent--in the lead-up to LBH. Certainly, Custer was effected by the march. Fell asleep the morning of the 25th and woke up to the smell of fires and coffee--though it is pretty much acknowledged that the Seventh did take the Indian village by surprise--the smoke coming from the fires could have been discovered ... guess his famous luck was still holding, eh? Well, at least for another six hours or so.

But after a spell, especially in a battle situation, I think adreneline (SIC) takes over. The horses were another matter.

Regards,
Leyton McLean

PS--I have a copy of Gray, but haven't read it yet. Does he rely upon Wallace's timekeeping? Bruce Trinque gave an interesting talk about that subject at the 2003 CBHMA--kind of blew Wallace away.

[twomoons]

rice. I cannot state with a certainty that he didn't use someone elses ideas on time elements. However I can find no reference to Wallace in his book.

Gray's work is quite well done, and he uses a surround of the battlefield to let you know what is happening all around the battle not just in one place. That helps alot!

It's a good read overall, and I think a good one that helps one to understand the events leading up to the final battle on and around Custer Hill.

[crzhrs]

Rice:

Gray wrote two books on LBH:

Centennial Campaign and Custer's Last Campaign.

The former does not delve into Custer's fight, but mostly about the events leading up to (treaties, government policy, etc.) the actions of Benteen and Reno, and the aftermath.

The latter is divided into two sections: one on the life of Mitch Boyer and the other on the LBH Campaign with good info on both subjects. The LBH section is quite involved, with timelines, testimony, and speculation by Gray on what Custer did and why. He is without doubt one of the most scholarly and technical of the LBH researchers.

PS: There is also a superb video based on Custer's Last Campaign: A GOOD DAY TO DIE. View it to get a "feel" of what went on during the battle!

[Rabble]

First Classman Reno had reported to the Post Hospital (West Point) July 5 1856, and was diagnosed with syphillis.( West Point Hospital Register page 109, Case No. 18, July 5 1856) Treated again October 28 1856 (Hospital Register page 121 Case No. 123). All from "In Custer's Shadow, Major Marcus Reno" by Ron Nichols, page 20.