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Post by Walt Cross on Apr 10, 2005 12:27:22 GMT -6
We need a new thread, get back to researching the battle and what influenced it.
Anyone read this book?
Hofling, Charles K. "Custer and the Little Big Horn, A Psychobiographical Inquiry". Detroit, MI - Wayne State University Press 1981.
Actually I'd like to read a psychological profile of Reno and Benteen as well. Anyone know of other books along this vein?
Walt
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Post by Tricia on Apr 10, 2005 13:12:14 GMT -6
Walt--
You're right. We need a new thread. To answer your question, I have read Hofling. It's been a couple of years now, and at the time, I felt some parts of the thing were out of date, given more recent scholarship, but it was an interesting read. Did rely on Mari Sandoz in a couple of circumstances (one being that GAC and TWC were both treated for syphilis in 1870, of course, the actual records are missing)--not sure that's she's the best source for advanced Custerstudy.
IMHO, Hofling provides one of those books that wouldn't be in existence today without the work of Van de Water in the past.
I've heard an interesting psychological profile of Benteen--how due to his life experience and his participation in the Trans-Mississippi theater of the ACW--the good captain came to the Seventh with a whole lot of problems for ANY Easterner who took control of the regiment--especially one who had served under and been promoted by Pleasonton.
Regards, Leyton McLean
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Post by Walt Cross on Apr 10, 2005 19:19:02 GMT -6
Thanks Rice; I picked up a copy of the book today and will give it a look through. Perhaps I will take the strengths of Custer as Hofling rates them and do a comparison with Reno and Benteen.
Walt
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Post by A guest on Apr 11, 2005 11:34:46 GMT -6
Sorry for straying off at a tangent here but....
I've always wandered about that syphilis story.
It stands to reason he would have passed it to his wife, and its' cited as the reason they had no children.
But I believe Rose Grainger, the mother of Australian composer/pianist Percy Grainger contracted that from his father and suffered mental problems leading to her eventual suicide.
Yet there is no evidence that Libby Custer had any of these health issues. In fact she seems to have lived to a ripe old age.
A guest
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Post by Tricia on Apr 11, 2005 13:02:44 GMT -6
Sorry for straying off at a tangent here but.... I've always wandered about that syphilis story. It stands to reason he would have passed it to his wife, and its' cited as the reason they had no children. Yet there is no evidence that Libby Custer had any of these health issues. In fact she seems to have lived to a ripe old age. A guest Guest--or should I call you "A?"-- There are a few explanations for GAC and LBC's childless state. I know Hofling says something about how too much time in the saddle cost GAC his sperm count. Then there is the syphilis tale (where he has been infected by an NA lass). Jeffry Wert has probably the best explanation--GAC caught the clap while visiting ladies of the night (the ihfamous nymphs du pave) during his time at West Point--and either the disease or the cure (given to him and several others at the Academy) itself rendered him sterile. Now of course, there were methods of birth control back then (okay, maybe not "medical" methods, per se)--but we'll never know. Getting back to the psychological impact--someone I read very early on made a case that due to his childless state made GAC even more of a risk taker (subconsciously) than necessary--supposedly if he had children to worry after, perhaps he would have been a bit more careful. Don't know if I actually swallow that! Walt--I've got a few deadlines to meet early this week, but I'll refresh myself on Hofling--I promise. Regards, Leyton McLean
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Post by twomoons on Apr 11, 2005 20:00:12 GMT -6
I don't know how much work has been done in this direction, but it wouldn't hurt to delve into it. There is alot to consider. And I put forth a few. 1) Was Custer so egocentric that he seemed to be a psycho? Or 2) Was Custer so psycho that he seemed to be egocentric? To answer that we need to answer a few other questions, like the one's below. Not that this is all, of course.... How much did he confer with his other officers? How come he turned down the 2nd Cavalry? How often did he disobey orders? Why didn't he take the Gatling guns? I did run across this on the internet. It may be a good read. isbn 0787900044 Psychoanalysis, General Custer, and the verdicts of history and other essays on psychology in the social scene. Author: Sarason, Seymour Bernard, 1919- Published: San Francisco : Jossey-Bass, c1994
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Post by Tricia on Apr 11, 2005 20:27:33 GMT -6
Twomoons--
I am hoping you've read enough of my posts to determine that I'm no phile. But I will take exception with your position that due to ego or vice versa, Custer was some psycho bent on victory at LBH. He used faulty tactics--tactics approved by the US Army, despite the guerilla warfare employed by the Native American enemy--and lost big against this more motivated foe. GAC had an ego, yes--but was it out of whack with any other military man of the period? Probably not. At least not one that has caused me to stop and take pause.
As for your other factors. Gatling guns got stuck in the Montana dirt and dust--Reno had all kinds of problems with his during his scout in June, 1876. The second infantry (assuming they marched by foot) would have slowed progress towards any hostiles. Remember, the Seventh only had rations for fifteen days--although Custer did, if the opportunity came up, want to give his regiment all the glory if engaged in a successful battle. I am not sure what you mean by disobeying orders--he did run afoul of his CO from time to time, got his butt arrested and dragged back to the column--BUT even his going AWOL in 1867, had the implicit (though later retracted) permission of the CO. However, in 1876, Terry's orders are written so vaguely, I cannot discern a clear pattern of disobedience--though GAC did not complete a scout of Tulloch's Creek.
I'm sure Walt can fill you in more on how often Custer conferred with his lesser officers. Certainly Tom Custer's word went somewhere with the elder brother, but I'm not sure beyond that relationship.
Hope this helps. Leyton McLean
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Post by Steve Wilk on Apr 11, 2005 21:42:19 GMT -6
He turned down the 2nd Cavalry additions because this would render Gibbon's battalion virtually useless in case pursuit was needed. He would be left with all infantry. Plus he felt they were not needed, he had the gall to have confidence in his regiment. Imagine that. You have to understand that in this tiny army of a mere 25,000 men, promotions are scarce and battlefield victories are one way to secure said promotions. Sharing battle honors with another regiment and commander detracts from that. ANY other regimental commander would have refused Brisbin's men also.
He didn't disobey orders at LBH...there were no orders. Terry's suggestions even state he cannot give precise orders.
Gatling guns were drawn by condemned nags. They were also useless in Indian fighting. The terrain at LBH was not conducive to their effective use.
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Post by Walt Cross on Apr 11, 2005 22:49:45 GMT -6
Steve; Terry made it pretty apparent he wanted Custer to scout up Tullock's Fork and make contact with Gibbon. Custer could easily have done that on the night of the 24th but did not. Hofling has a statement on the reasons for that and I will post it later. That's about the only part of Terry's instructions I think we can say Custer disobeyed. I think your reasons why he turned down the 2nd Cavalry also apply as to why he didn't scout up Tullock's Fork. This is a good thread we have going here fellas!
Walt
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Post by twomoons on Apr 12, 2005 1:03:57 GMT -6
I think one of the best books for a psych. profile of Lt. Col. Custer is those in which he speaks his own thoughts and words. I tend to be fairly unbiased when I read such things and look for things of omission, or self promotion. I'm not always impressed with modern day reviews of his work, but am impressed by those comtemporary in his period and what they said about his works. One such example is "My Life on the Plains."
Frederick Benteen called it, "My lie on the Plains." I think the reasons why we all know, but was there more to it than that? In reality, I think so. In the book Custer trivialized the Court Martial. And ommitted or expanded things because of either his egocentrism, or psycho self image. I think it gives insights into the psychology of a man who wished to become more than a myth, and he did. Any researcher who wants to know his thoughts and what lies beneath them, must objectively read the man's own words.
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Post by Steve Wilk on Apr 12, 2005 7:21:49 GMT -6
Walt: There was no reason to scout Tullocks....there were no trails leading there, and, as it turned out, there was nothing there. Just like there was nothing to be found on Benteen's scout to the left, undertaken in accordance, if only in a token sense, with Terry's suggestions.
Gerard mentions in interviews with Camp that the Tullock's scout was discussed on the divide; the command had a good view of the region from there, saw no trails leading there nor any signs of Indians in that area. Thus there was no reason to waste a man trying to get through to Gibbon with useless information that there was nothing there.
I'm no scholar or expert but I believe that field commanders were allowed to exercise much more discretion in those days than now. Custer did not have the benefit of computers, cell phones, or other electronic communication. "Orders" written on paper based on certain intelligence one day could be meaningless the next due to new info or changing circumstances.
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Post by crzhrs on Apr 12, 2005 7:25:52 GMT -6
In the book THE RENO COURT OF INQUIRY the author states that both Custer and Reno were treated for syphillis. Whether the treatment was successful no one knows. Syphillis can cause mental deterioration and make one sterile.
No kids for Custer? Maybe the disease or maybe he and Libbie avoided sex . . . whose to say. We know Reno had serious emotional issues. Maybe the syphillis or maybe alcohol.
Either way Custer and Reno's actions at the Little Big Horn have always been questioned.
STDs?
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Post by Tricia on Apr 12, 2005 7:38:14 GMT -6
Steve; Terry made it pretty apparent he wanted Custer to scout up Tullock's Fork and make contact with Gibbon. Custer could easily have done that on the night of the 24th but did not. Hofling has a statement on the reasons for that and I will post it later. That's about the only part of Terry's instructions I think we can say Custer disobeyed. I think your reasons why he turned down the 2nd Cavalry also apply as to why he didn't scout up Tullock's Fork. This is a good thread we have going here fellas! Walt Walt-- I've always had issues with the non-completed scout of Tulloch's Creek--but it doesn't bother me so much knowing that there wasn't a clear, precisely set date for a rendezvous of the three columns near the Big Horn River. A completed scout MIGHT have, timing-wise, brought the Seventh closer to any possible "help" coming from the north. But on the other hand, the "hostile" village was already making preparations to pack up to leave on the 26th--so GAC not making the scout might have given the Montana forces the only opportunity for catching the NAs in bulk, rather than on the road and harder to catch. Darn--why is everything in regards to LBH a three-headed coin? Regards, Leyton McLean
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Post by Tricia on Apr 12, 2005 7:44:47 GMT -6
In the book THE RENO COURT OF INQUIRY the author states that both Custer and Reno were treated for syphillis. Whether the treatment was successful no one knows. Syphillis can cause mental deterioration and make one sterile. No kids for Custer? Maybe the disease or maybe he and Libbie avoided sex . . . whose to say. We know Reno had serious emotional issues. Maybe the syphillis or maybe alcohol. Either way Custer and Reno's actions at the Little Big Horn have always been questioned. STDs? Crazyhorse-- I don't happen to have that book. Does the author have a primary source indicated for the GAC/STD theory--I mean one that hasn't been lost at some fort? I have heard the Reno syphilis story before and how the advancing disease effected his decisions at LBH more than Bloody Knife's flying brains. That whole reaction about Hobson's body strikes me as beyond the pale. Regards, Leyton McLean
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Post by crzhrs on Apr 12, 2005 8:25:24 GMT -6
LEYTON:
The author--W.A. Graham--stated that West Point hospital records showed that Custer was treated for gonorrhea--no date--and Reno for syphilis in July and October, 1856.
The author states that Reno's case may have progressed to its his secondary stage. At the time there was no effected cure for syphilis.
No other info given for Custer's case.
Is it a coincidence that during Custer's CW career he could do not wrong, won fame, honor, and glory. But his Indian Fighting career was marred by controvorsey, "questionable" decisions, personal disbutes with fellow officers, challenging Grant, and, of course, his actions at the LBH. STDs usually take time to effect one's mind and body. Did that disease take its toll by the time Custer was on the Plains?
A side note regarding children for the Custers: Custer wrote to Libbie in Oct. 1868: ". . . how troublesome and embarrassing babies would be to us . . . Our pleasure would be continually marred and circumscribed . . ."
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