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Post by Rabble on Mar 28, 2005 3:22:28 GMT -6
Hi Walt, great list, but you should have added the trilogy by the late Jim Willert. March of the Columns Little Big Horn Diary and To the Edge of Darkness and also, I believe, "Dutch" Hardoff's Custer Battle Casualties II
Hope your book is out this June!!! Ron
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Post by shatonska on Mar 28, 2005 5:31:20 GMT -6
Benteen - stop. Come on - stop. Big village - stop. Be quick - stop
i understand what you said , but he wasn't quick at all !
anyway the attention has to be on reno , reno in the wood could split the indians , he was to near to the village to leave him in mass and go toward custer ,with reno in the wood benteen could reach custer , maybe to fall with him or maybe not , a day of mistakes but the greatest was reno
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Post by twomoons on Mar 28, 2005 9:50:17 GMT -6
Thankyou shatonska I will try to respect others views as long as they are based upon fact.
Nothing was mentioned of Reno in that message to Benteen. Though your arguements may be valid to properly understand that message you cannot Run the words into a complete sentence and infer that one has a correspondence to the other. Each conveyed a separate order to Benteen:
1) Benteen - stop. The order is official in two ways it was addressed directly to "Benteen" and signed by "Cooke"
Come on - stop. Your mission is over, come on. Stop.
Big village - stop. It is a well known fact that Custer didn't believe his own scouts at the Crows nest. This was a confirmation to Benteen that the scouts were right, it was a "Big Village"
Be quick - stop. Make your best possible time. Stop That's all it meant!!!
Much has been made of this. Benteen didn't do this some say. Have any of you ever rode a thirsty horse on a hot summer day? If you've ridden that horse without water for a long time in the hot temperatures of that day, there is no way in H**L that your going to pry that horse away from water once he has a scent of it. NO-WAY!!!! And that horse sure as H**L wont budge until it has its fill!!!
And that leaves us with the Packs. These things were unwieldy. The were continually dropping things off, and the soldiers had to keep picking them up, even at the pace they were going. To have hurried them more, wouldn't have made any sense. And we are presented with a Pack animal that thinks with it's A** rather than it's head. Anyone who knows about mules know's that you have to beat the living daylights out of them to get them to do anything. And then most of the time if they have a cantankerous spirit, water shortage whatever, they'll refuse to do anything at all!!!!
Bring Packs -stop. Bring the Packs. Stop
Ps Bring Packs stop. Custer/Cooke stressed this order twice. Reiterrating it as a PS or Postscript, which is a Note, a "reminder", "explanation" a "sign" or "hint" to pay close attention".
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Post by crzhrs on Mar 28, 2005 15:14:42 GMT -6
Since Benteen was sent on his scout to the left before any plans were made on attacking the village he had no idea the command was further divided. When he got his come quick message he may not have come as quick as prudent, but he did come. Once he approached the valley fight, he had no idea who was involved, all, some, or part of the command. He supported the command he thought was Custer's. After that, with all the confusion, shock, and wounded, Reno was unable to lead. Weir took off on his own, without any thought of who was taking care of the wounded, jeopardizing himself, the men following him, and the rest of the command.
Benteen should have taken over from Reno on the grounds that he was unable to command, but whether that was commonplace then, I do not know.
Ideally, some companies should have been to investigate the gunfire downriver and Custer's whereabouts, while the rest took care of the wounded and got the command back on its feet.
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Son of a Cavalryman
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Post by Son of a Cavalryman on Mar 28, 2005 16:28:11 GMT -6
Twomoons is right, don't read more in the message than there was. Cooke emphasized the packs for two reasons. The men that would come along with the packs, and the very great need for more ammunition cause this was going to be one heck of a fight!
As for Crzhrs, he's forgotten about Martini, Martini knew Custer wasn't in the valley. Benteen knew it too, Martini told him.
SOACM
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Post by crzhrs on Mar 29, 2005 10:25:56 GMT -6
SOACM: <As for Crzhrs, he's forgotten about Martini, Martini knew Custer wasn't in the valley. Benteen knew it too, Martini told him>
According to Martini's interview with Walt Camp::
BENTEEN: "Where is General Custer?" MARTINI: " About 3 miles from here."
At the Reno COI he stated that he told Benteen that "I supposed that by that time he (Custer) had made a charge through the village. I said nothing about Maj. Reno's battalion. He did not ask about it."
Nowhere does Martini say exactly where Custer is and his not telling about Reno leaves Benteen without any knowledge of who was in the valley or anything else about Custer's plan of attack.
Do you have a source about Benteen knowing Custer was not in the valley?
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Post by twomoons on Mar 29, 2005 10:56:40 GMT -6
Whether Martini knew exactly where Custer and his troops went or for that matter were going, perhaps. But he did see them marching away, down MTC. Their exact location would not have been known by him.
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Post by crzhrs on Mar 29, 2005 11:04:45 GMT -6
Twomoons:
Martini's last glimpse of Custer's command was their advancing down MTC. Other than that he has no knowledge of what took place. He saw no fighting between Custer and Indians. He saw Reno's command but said nothing about it to Benteen.
His broken English and possible fear of offering any other info, except his statements of Indians "skeddadling" or "we've caught them napping," leaves the impression that the cavalry was in control. Martini unwittingly may have more to do with the results at the LBH than one thinks.
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Son of a Cavalryman
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Post by Son of a Cavalryman on Mar 29, 2005 11:17:59 GMT -6
Sheeeeesh! Martini knew Custer wasn't in the valley attacking the village for CrimeInItaly's sake.
SOACM
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Post by crzhrs on Mar 29, 2005 11:47:16 GMT -6
Yes . . . but he didn't tell Custer! He offered no additional info other than Custer was in control of the situation.
By not saying anything about Reno that leaves Benteen without any intelligence about the plan of attack and who was already engaged. Custer's message of big village and bring packs could mean that Custer was waiting for Benteen before any action was to be taken.
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Post by twomoons on Mar 29, 2005 12:37:54 GMT -6
Now were sorta getting at the bottom to this sordid tale. You see, even Benteen didn't know "how to do" what the message said, but he did understand what it said. Benteens reply is quite revealing in this regard, and his actions thereafter doesn't or shouldn't give rise to speculation.
I like that avatar saying Crzhrs! Myself I prefer to aggregate rather than agitate. Although unwittingly I do both it seems.
Pardon an old man ~ shades of Gray I fear.
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Son of a Cavalryman
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Post by Son of a Cavalryman on Mar 29, 2005 15:13:02 GMT -6
Crzhrs; I can't get past the idea that since it didn't appear in any book you assume there was no other conversation between Benteen and Martini. Nor can I understand your thinking that Benteen, as seasoned and intelligent an officer as he was, wouldn't recognize it was Reno in the valley. The horses were colored coded! One look and he knew who it was. He knew Custer was north of his position not in the valley. Apply logic.
SOACM
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Post by crzhrs on Mar 30, 2005 16:00:25 GMT -6
SOACM:
Since we have only first-hand accounts of what took place, it is very important that PRIMARY SOURCES be looked at.
Custer/LBH has been full of what-ifs, speculation, shouldas, couldas, and what-fors since June 25, 1876.
Speculation can be fun but since there is nothing in writing about any conversation between Benteen and Martin we have to go by the written word. Martini did not say anything to Benteen about Reno's fight. He gave the impression to Benteen that was Custer was in control and Indians were "asleep"
Meanwhile, Edgerly overheard Martini tell enlisted men that Reno was kicking the stuffing out of Indians, killing everything in sight. Did Edgerly say anything to Benteen about that? He does not say or is it written that he did.
Martini was wrong about what Reno was doing, he gave the impression that Custer either was about to take the village or had taken it.
We can assume all kinds of things or apply OUR OWN LOGIC to what shoulda, coulda, musta happen . . . but I don't see it that way in any book. After all, books are what we learn history from.
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Post by markland on Mar 31, 2005 10:17:08 GMT -6
Guys, what am I missing here? After the morass, Benteen went northward, following the trail made by Custer. Godfrey's account states that when they rejoined the trail from the southern jaunt (obviously Reno's) that they were just ahead of the pack train. Communications could have occurred at that point with Lt. Mathey. Godfrey also states, "During this march on the left [side of creek?], we could see occasionally the battalion under Custer, distinguished by the troop mounted on gray horses, marching at a rapid gait." Godfrey goes on to say that after Kanipe & Martin's messages, they began to hear firing and had begun to deploy in line when they came in full view of the valley. They saw dust and smoke with horsemen riding in and out (paraphrase). They also saw on their right " a body of troops and that they were engaged." Also relevant, perhaps not to this thread though, is the fact that Benteen's "...column had been marching at a trot and walk, according as the ground was smooth or broken." "Owing to the distance, smoke, and dust, it was impossible to distinguish if those in the valley were friends or foes. There was a short time of uncertainty as to the direction in which we should go, but some Crow scouts came by, driving a small herd of ponies, one of whom said "Soldiers," and motioned for the command to go to the right." Again not relevant to this thread but useful is the fact that as they approached the valley and while the engagement appeared to be coming towards them, Godfrey states that the column "...took the gallop with pistols drawn, expecting to meet the enemy which we thought Custer was driving before him in his effort to communicate with the pack train...". Somewhere it is written that Weir and Benteen actually were on two separate trails, after Reno's command crossed over to the right-side of the stream, Weir on the rightmost trail, Custer's, while Benteen remained between the two. Whether they noticed or not, to me it is fairly obvious that they had to have seen where the trails diverged, Custer to the north and Reno westerly. So, if I am putting the pieces together correctly, Benteen had reasonable cause to suspect that Custer's battalion was the one engaged on the bluffs and only upon arrival discovered what had occurred with Reno's command. The URL for Godfrey's 1892 New Century magazine article is : cdl.library.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/moa/moa-cgi?notisid=ABP2287-0043-105 Billy P.S. Once at the URL, click on "Custer's Last Battle".
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Son of a Cavalryman
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Post by Son of a Cavalryman on Mar 31, 2005 15:00:56 GMT -6
Markland; No, you're not missing anything. You are exactly correct in saying there was no doubt in Benteen's mind the direction he had to go to reach Custer. He knew that whoever that was in the valley, it wasn't Custer.
SOACM
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