Was the action at MTC a search, attack or a feint?

[twomoons]

Most of the accounts that I have seen on this subject are for the most part biased to one view or another. Some stongly suggest that Custer was "searching" for the Native American women and children here. Some contend that it was an "attack". While still others say that it was merely a "feint". So which was it? Or was it something else? Perhaps a combination of two or all three? And can we ever know for certain?

And this was the reason I asked the question earlier: The curious statement of Lt Col Custer. "We've got them now.... If Custer knew where the women and children were then this statement makes sense. But it would be based upon incomplete information if the injected part of that statement was included: "We've caught them napping." Which means that he was attacking the ford at MTC with incomplete information. Of course no one seems to know or care about that thread.... Which as one can clearly see if it was answered may shed some light upon his actions at MTC?

[crzhrs]

Two Moons:

John Gray suggests a feint, to get the Indians off Reno.

Possibly, with the belief that Benteen should be coming soon, Custer divided his command again, for another multi-prong attack on the village, while Custer goes further north looking for a spot to cross and/or get the non-coms.

Hard to believe Custer would divide his already divided command so close to the village. He must have realized the size of the village by then, and another division would only weaken and separate what he already has for fighting strength. Plus Yates, I believe, had only two companies with him, not really enough to cause problems for the Indians.

A feint, to me, seems logical. Yates could have made the feint, knowing he could quickly reunite with Custer. And once Benteen gets there, increases the command by at least 125 men. However, things happened so rapdily that the separation resulted in the Indians being able to take out the separated units piecemeal.

[weir]

I think that Custer was looking for a Ford, not for him but for Benteen's battalion.

If you look Custer's strategy this day, it looks like W.ashita.

Reno from the South, Benteen in the middle and Custer in the North.
While Benteen was supposing going back at gallop, Custer sent a platoon of company E to explore the river and find a Ford.

Every Custer's moves at LBH were in mind to attack. Benteen and Reno were supposed to attack the warriors, one in front, one in the rear, and Custer was supposed to capture civilians and fighting the fleeing warriors in the North.

I quote Fox : "Custer just did that [wait]". Custer was only preparing the way for the future attack, but Benteen never came.

As Michno schowed in Lakota Noon, Custer surprised the Indians twice. His plan was working perfectly at the time he shouted : "we got them !"

[Walt Cross]

It was a reconnaissance in force, with many options to consider depending upon the situation. Xav is right, it was very much like Washita.

Walt

[bigpond]

Xav

How did he [Custer] know Benteen was not engaged in a fight ?

When he sent him to the left oblique,he[Benteen] was told to pitch into anything he came across.

When Custer sent his come quick message,it would have meant nothing anyway if Benteen's command had been in action.

[bigpond]

Guest-Walt said:

It was a reconnaissance in force, with many options to consider depending upon the situation. Xav is right, it was very much like Washita.

Walt

Walt,Custer didn't know anything about the other camps along the Washita,he got lucky.When the other Indians approached,he feinted towards the other camps,then got out of there smartish.

[Walt Cross]

Bigpond, Xav. You are both correct. He did make a feint at Washita after he found out about the other villages. and after he fond out about the other Indians he didn't have the courage to go look for Major Elliott.

If Benteen had been engaged it would not have mattered how many messengers Custer sent. And it turned out that way anyway.

Don't misunderstand me, Benteen dawdled. And I think he did so in his smug thought that Custer only wanted him to back up his play on the Indians, just in case. Nearly always before the Indians had fled, not stood their ground. Benteen made a bad judgement call, but one that almost any cavalryman would have made. The horses needed water badly. And it would have been another poor decision for Benteen to abandon Reno in his need to go to Custer. He knew of one disaster and made the right decision to stay. He did not know of the other disaster taking place. If he had pushed the horses he might have gotten to Reno ten minutes earlier and would still have had to stop.

Walt

[weir]

bigpond said:

Xav

How did he [Custer] know Benteen was not engaged in a fight ?

When he sent him to the left oblique,he[Benteen] was told to pitch into anything he came across.

When Custer sent his come quick message,it would have meant nothing anyway if Benteen's command had been in action.

You know what bigpond, Custer sent an order to Benteen : the captain must give a report of the reconaissance he as made of "satellite vlillage".
Of course, Benteen never did.
Custer estimated the Indians around 1'500 warriors. he was correct. When he saw the village, he understood it was no others camp and sent his famous note :

Benteen. Come on. Big village. Bring Packs. PS : Bring Packs.

Here is the translation : Benteen, there is a big village, no need of your reconnaissance, come on quick to be part of the attack. Bring the packs your battalion can take off the pack train ."

I quote Utley : "Benteen had decided he would be no part of the battle this day".

I'm just wondering why.. is Benteen's reaction normal? Mr. Cross think that is ridiculous to wonder about that, but I still do.

I wanted to clarify something to all LBH associates. How can you say, as you do, that Custer's decision and plan at LBH was logical and after that accept that Benteen disobey orders which tell him to come quick, be part of this same plan ? Huh ?

[weir]

"[Custer] did make a feint at Washita after he found out about the other villages. and after he fond out about the other Indians he didn't have the courage to go look for Major Elliott."

Better and better. Custer had so no courage that he sent and risked the life of Myers and a squadron to look for Elliott on November 27th, the day of the battle. Of course, one man, and only one, said Custer abandonned Elliott, it was Benteen. Benteen tried to have support from Myers and Ben Clark in his accusation against Custer but he failed.

it is quite funny that you Mr. Cross have no problem to say that Custer abandonned Elliott despite prooves but you have problems to look on Benteen's treason in LBH despite prooves. ;D

Mr. Cross, be fair. You don't like Custer, that's all. If you admit that, it would be better instead of making believe you are impartial.

[twomoons]

Okay it looks like 2 for attack 2 for feint.

Crzhrs you are corrent in part of your statments. It was a feint, in part to get the Indians off of Reno. I don't believe though that Benteen had anything to do with Custer's decision presented at that time. Bigpond is absoulutely correct on this. There was no way that Custer knew whether Benteen was engaged or not. Whether that decision came before or after Boston's meeting with him, it wouldn't have mattered.

Walt makes the statement that: " If Benteen had been engaged it would not have mattered how many messengers Custer sent. And it turned out that way anyway." A true statement indeed! The fact was and still is that no matter what Custer did at that point he took it upon himself and did not rely upon Benteen, as any rational commander could, should and he as indeed did do - to give the orders that he gave.

He had to do, what he had to do, at the TIME and place, that was dictated by the battlefield conditions. Whether it was logical or not has been debated for over a hundred years and that may never end. But in the end all were left with is the fact that, Benteen was looked upon as a possible reinforcement of his situation. But was not a definite, and Custer knew this.

For Custer to make plans for Benteens arrival any time after this decision was made would have been outrageouly ludicous. Why do you suppose that Benteen was not held in as much contempt as Reno was? Most people today castigate Benteen for his actions, back then they castigated Reno. The real question is, why? Simply because Benteen didn't do any wrong and this was upheld, as was duly noted. We're always looking for that scapegoat. But the fact was there was none. Possibilities don't make realities, no matter how hard we want it to be that way, it wasn't and still isn't!

Some reaserchers just cant believe that Custer already knew where he was going. As I have said before, he wasn't searching for anything. He already knew! His Indian scouts, Cooke - Keough, and his observations from Wier Peak told him everything he needed to know! And like many, most simply cannot reconcile themselves to the splitting of his command at this point - AGAIN! The split had to occur for a feint to take place. If he was feinting, why? Something that no one really considers. If Custer made the decision to split his already depleted command, why? Simple. If he knew where he was going, then that decision isn't easily misunderstood.

Custer knew that only about 50 men or so at MTF would not and could not hold it. So yes it was a feint. The evidence at MTF suggests that there wasn't much fighting there. Which is absolutely true. If you were Custer and you had 50 soldiers overlooking the ford and hundreds of Native Americans are charging that position, your not going to stay there long! Many suggest that the number of Custer's men there at MTF was greater. The question was and still is: If that was the case why didn't they defend the ford there, rather than defend where they later did at Calhoun Hill. That just doesn't make any sense at all. A bottleneck into the area of the ford was the best place with a proper number of men. This again supports Benteens position. If Custer was "planning for him" as so many have suggested. Then why not "Wait" for him and put those men here? It didn' happen, wasn't going to happen, and wasn't planned for. Benteen's off the hook again because like bigpond said, Custer had no way of knowing whether or not Benteen was engaged.

The other thing that really gets me with the Benteen arguement is his decision to stop and help Reno. If he had kept going Reno would have most like been wiped out, instead of Custer. Most soldiers statements at that time support this view, mainly due to the fact that Reno was dazed, kaput or out of the action. If it hadn't been for Benteen, Reno's command in all probability would have quickly lost tactical cohesion and fell.

[weir]

Boston Custer said to Custer that Benteen was on his trail. 3 kilometers far. Custer knew the reinforcements were on the way. What he couldn't know is those reinforcements will never come. Custer knew also that Benteen was not engaged because the village was big, and had visibly the number of warriors estimated, 1'500.

If Custer sent two messengers (Kanipe, with an order to come quick for Benteen and Mac Dougall, and Martini only for Benteen) it is a proof that Benteen was involved in Custer's plan. The moves of Custer's battalion were just waiting for Benteen. The Captain kew it also.



Custer was preparing his offensive. In tactical terms, it means taking opportunities, no giving the initiative to the ennemy, be fast, and gather his command for a multiple attack to the village. Custer was gaining time at MTC, in exploring the MTC Ford. After that, the Custer's men were still gaining time for Benteen to come, but he never did. And Benteen's behavior during the Court of Inquiry should show you that he was not honest.

That's false. The Indians were not many to chase Reno's command on Reno Hill, and never leave him because of Benteen's arrival. They said that in testimonies. Upon which prooves are you writiing if you don't look at them ?

Custer acted at MTC Ford to attract the warriors on his front, leaving Reno's command from threat. Benteen's arrival acted as reinforcements for reno, but after that...? 2 hours and... nothing.

The Reno-Benteen survivors had a stake in perpetuating the idea that the Custer fight was over quickly. It was not in the best interest of the army, or to a number of officers's careers, if it could be shown that they dawdled for two hours during Custer's struggle."
Michno, Lakota Noon, p.297

That's not a cool study. Men were massacred n 1 to 7 when 2/3 of the regiment stay on Reno Hill without giving support. Remember that before saying anything. That's really astonishing how you can be influenced by Benteen. I'm sure you are boycotting all the books which are against him. That's the only way I guess to still believe in him. Even the Indians admitted they never understood the Reno and Benteen's behavior, during Reno's retreat and Weir Peaks's retreat. "a dead horse" for Mr Cross I guess, a detail...?

It let me wonders... After how much lies do you begin to suspect a man ? Because Benteen's report, articles and testimonies had so much lies that we could invent a dictionnary of.

[shatonska]

wait wait , custer knew perfectly that benteen was not engaged , boston custer coming passed over benteen who was making his holiday trip that day , benteentrail was only 2 miles longer than custer's that day , benteen could support custer whitout ruining the horses , all custer's' movements where logical thinking that he was waiting for reinforcements ! benteen could arrive in time to save custer even at that slow pace but he met reno ,
reno retreat from the wood was the cause of the disaster !

[weir]

Guest-shatonska said:

wait wait , custer knew perfectly that benteen was not engaged , boston custer coming passed over benteen who was making his holiday trip that day , benteentrail was only 2 miles longer than custer's that day , benteen could support custer whitout ruining the horses , all custer's' movements where logical thinking that he was waiting for reinforcements ! benteen could arrive in time to save custer even at that slow pace but he met reno ,
reno retreat from the wood was the cause of the disaster !

I totally agree.

[twomoons]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a big fan of Benteen's, Reno's nor for that matter Custer's! My feelings about these people don't come into play for me. I look objectively at the evidence as it is presented and try to make a judgement based upon known military standards of the day. Though at times I may use an analogy, that analogy is ususally correct, when assessing a certain situation.

Many consider Benteen's behaviour reprehensible, cowardly and even a dereliction of duty. But the same may be said of Reno, and perhaps even of Custer. When you add feelings into tactical military situations, you loose! When you add careful analyitical thought based upon facts it helps to understand the events of that day. No matter what my "feelings" are the fact remained and remains to this day that Custer had no way of knowing whether Benteen would become engaged on his way to meet up with him. His intelligence at the point of departure for MTC was as current as he could possibly get. But one cannot assume based upon "feelings" that he would not become engaged before Benteen reached Custer. The tactical situation demanded that Custer act before Benteen's arrival, as I have clearly pointed out.

I could possibly go into hundreds of situations based upon how I "feel" things could have went had Benteen made it to reinforce Custer's position. But these would all be suppostition and not fact! The one suppostition was the MTF "feeling" that "if" Benteen had reinforced him in time. There is no credence for that myth, just as there is no credence to any myths based upon "feelings" regarding Custer "waiting" for anything! And as I said and you yourselves clearly pointed out that if Custer knew Benteen was that close, why not wait a few moments more and execute that perfect plan? You cannot blame Benteen for this! You have to blame Custer alone! He made the decisions he did based upon the tactical battlefield conditions that existed at that time without "waiting" for wishing or hopeing for Benteen, and he wasn't supposing anything, he couldn't afford to or he would have waited.

And that's another thing. What in the world would he ever "wait" for? He knew Benteen better than you or I. He knew that Benteen didn't like him. And he knew that Benteen could be a bit of a prude at times. To think that he would "wait" for someone like that doesn't make any sense, based upon the tactical situation presented him. Myths are made and perpetuated by feelings. Facts are based upon careful thought and not careless suggestions by one's own biased feelings. If your going to analyse this event, please stick to what Custer did know rather than what you don't know!

[weir]

And that's another thing. What in the world would he ever "wait" for? He knew Benteen better than you or I. He knew that Benteen didn't like him. And he knew that Benteen could be a bit of a prude at times. To think that he would "wait" for someone like that doesn't make any sense, based upon the tactical situation presented him.

I'm European, that explains maybe this difference. In european armies, leaders don't have to include in their plan that a subordinate can disobey...
A bit in prudence at times... Benteen was 30 minutes from Reno at gallop, but when he reached Reno Creek it was 1h20. "A bit of a prude". More than a bit, I fear.

Why Custer waited for Benteen. Maybe because Benteen had 120 men, and Custer 210, and Custer's plan was a multiple attack of the village, which included 3 attacking parts. Custer's North, Reno's South and Benteen's Middle.

Custer scouted the fords, and let Keogh right wing to protect his rear while he was scouting as warriors began to attack. He was scouting, preparing his attack. But Custer is not the foolish commander some want us to believe. he knew he had to divide the warriors and capture the civilians.

If Custer had attack without waiting supports, he would be now the stupid impetuous glory hunter the bad scholars invented.
He did the contrary. And is still criticized.