Cooke, Keough, Reno.

[twomoons]

It is generally assumed by many that Cooke and Keough accompanied Reno on his way to attack down the valley. The reasons for their presence with Reno is thought by some was for Cooke to make observations and take them back to Custer. The reasons for Keough's presence there eludes most researchers or is dismissed as unimportant.

For whatever reasons they were there, and we know they did accompany Reno. The question is: When did they leave Reno to return to Custer? And perhaps more importantly: How long would that have taken? If they went back to Reno's initial crossing and then back to the north up Reno hill that way their horses would likely have tired.

The second query is that from some of accounts i've seen, Reno also sent 2 couriers to Custer sometime before, during or just after their skirmish with the Native Americans. The question is: Who were these couriers? And: when were they dispatched? and once again: By which route did they travel?

[twomoons]

Anyone?

This is important because both Cooke and Keough were both seen leaving with Reno, yet they later died with Custer! And at least Cooke was with Custer at the time that he sent the "bring pacs" message back to Benteen.

[crzhrs]

Two Moons:

The two messengers Reno sent were McIlargy and Mitchell. I believe they ended up dead with Custer.

Cooke and Keough went along with Custer for a number of reasons. Some say as a "babysitter" for Reno to let him know that everything will be OK and he would be supported or to gather info on the Indians.

Fred Girard, a civilian packer, stated that he saw that Indians were not running and coming up that valley to meet Reno. He thought Custer show get that info immediately. He told Cooke about it and Cooke left to join Custer. I'm not sure when Keough left, he may have left earlier or gone with Cooke.

Apparently Cooke and Keough were staying back and possibly gathering intelligence to report to Custer. Girard's info may have startled Cooke and he probably left immediately to get that message to Custer. Indians staying to fight rather than running may have been another reason that Custer altered his plan of attack.

Only speculation on my part, though.

[crzhrs]

Two Moons:

Re: The Two Messengers.

Reno sent them when he failed to notice any support from Custer, and the Indians were in overwhelming numbers and not running. After McIlargy left and there was no response from Custer, Reno sent Mitchell. Reno said they were the nearest men he could get hold of quickly. When he again got no response he proceeded down the valley to carry out his orders. So, apparently the messengers were sent before Reno even charged.

The two messengers must have followed Custer's trail but since they both died with Custer that's only an assumption.

[weir]

In fact Indians were overhelming Reno's command because Reno was the first commander in the Frontier army to give the most critical position - the (left) flank - to non-combattants Ree scouts.
Even with this stupid error, Reno had lost three men when he reached the timber. Nothing alarming. But Reno was already in panic.

The worst thing of the Reno's battalion this day was Reno himslef, not the Indians.

The soldiers fall back so fast that the oglala warrior Low Dog thought it was an ambush !!!

[twomoons]

Thanks one and all for your comments.

I've done some time/distance studies upon this subject and thought some may be interested. They do present some problems associated with the timing when considering their departure and exactly when that occured. I think most will find this interesting and revealing!

I use the term here ford A. This ford for the purpose of this study is where Reno made his first crossing.

Time distance studies of Cooke/Keough's famous ride. Possibilities directions and distance/time study. Elapsed time considering terrain difficulites, distance, time& fatigue with riders on horseback. The study is accurate to within a 1/2 mile radius of the indicated arc radius's.

Location: Somewhere within a 1/2 mile semi arc radius SSE of the Reno skirmish line, Target jct mtc and cedar coulee.
Possible ride destinations based upon possible known ford locations and assuming that they reached Custer when he was at or near the jct. of MTC and Cedar Coulee.


Ford A: Elapsed time 34 to 38 minutes. Covering an average distance of 6 1/2 miles.

Retreat Ford: Elapsed time 22 to 26 minutes. Covering an average distance of 4 miles.

Beaver Dam ford: Elapsed time 22 to 26 minutes. Covering an average distance of 3 miles.

Using the same time studies and same arc location, Target Weir Peak.
Location: Somewhere within a 1/2 mile semi arc radius SSE of the Reno skirmish line.
Possible ride destinations based upon possible known ford locations and assuming that they reached Custer when he was on Weir Peak.

Ford A: Elapsed time 28 to 32 minutes. Covering an average distance of about 5 miles.

Retreat Ford: Elapsed time 18 to 22 minutes. Covering an average distance of about 3 1/2 miles.

Beaver Dam Ford: Elapsed time 18 to 22 minutes. Covering an average distance of about 2 miles.

NEXT SET:

Location: Somewhere within a 1/2 mile to a 1 1/2 mile semi arc radius SSE of the Reno skirmish line, Target jct mtc and cedar coulee.
Possible ride destinations based upon possible known ford locations and assuming that they reached Custer when he was at or near the jct. of MTC and Cedar Coulee.

Ford A to Jct. Elapsed time 28 to 32 minutes, Average distance covered about 5 miles.

Retreat Ford to Jct. Elapsed time 16 to 20 minutes. Average distance covered about 3 miles.

Beaver Dam ford. Too far....

Using the same time studies and same arc location, Target Weir Peak.
Location: Somewhere within a 1/2 mile to a 1 1/2 mile semi arc radius SSE of the Reno skirmish line.
Possible ride destinations based upon possible known ford locations and assuming that they reached Custer when he was on Weir Peak.

Ford A to Weir pk. Elapsed time 25 to 29 minutes. Average distance covered 4 1/3 miles.

Retreat Ford to Weir pk. Elapsed time 13 to 17 minutes. Average distance covered 2 1/3 miles.

Beaver Dam Ford. Too far...

These figures are based upon the riders starting from positions as stated (within the arc locations) and their course taking them THROUGH the fords, not starting at them! Just thought that I'd mention that to clear up any misunderstandings.

The fascinating part I think is that it would have taken them had they gone back through ford A ( Reno's initial crossing site) 28 to 38 minutes. This averages to 33 minutes!

If they had known of Reno's retreat ford, and gone that way it would have taken them 18 to 26 minutes on the average 22 minutes.

[twomoons]

Is there anything solid on this that any one knows about? Was there a mention of someone seeing either Cooke or Keough during this time? Other than the usual telling of the story that they were seen leaving with Reno?

Anyone?

[weir]

During Reno's first skirmish line, De Rudio and a private saw Custer and Cooke and another cavalryman on Weir Peaks, shaking their hats "as if they encouraged us" said a private. "Men said "That is Custer, if he shakes his hat it means he is preparing something."

Private Goldin testified that he received a writing message from Custer to Reno (which said "We will soon be with you") when Reno's battalion left Custer's. Maybe it explains the presence of Cooke during a while near Reno's command...?

[twomoons]

hmmm....

Well that would then have to place in two places at the same time. If Cooke and keough went with Reno until the Native Americans started their attacks. That meant that Cooke and Keough had to have been somewhere in the vicinity with Reno. On the other hand and I've also heard the same. Cooke was spotted on the cliffs above the river with Custer. These events are in nature simulateous when you read Gray's work. Either Cooke had a double or one wasn't him!

[Walt Cross]

I hesitated to get into this one, only because all I recall is that Cooke met with Reno just before Reno crossed the LBH River because Reno asked for clarification of his orders. If I come across anything else I'll post it. I try to avoid paraphrasing and trying to "remember" history.

Walt

[twomoons]

No please don't feel intimidated, it's just an attempt to find the truth. This one is difficult because there isn't much on it that I can find. That is why I posted the possible departure times for Cooke and/or Keough as I did. That along with Gray's work puts a timeline into possible departures. Thanks twomoons

[Walt Cross]

Thanks Twomoon, I'm not intimidated but if I have nothing to offer I don't make things up. I will look into your question and see what I can find.

Walt

[twomoons]

Perhaps intimidated was the wrong choice of words, sorry that! I was just trying to show proper respect for your opinions, which I highly value!!!