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Post by Walt Cross on Mar 13, 2005 15:42:12 GMT -6
You mean the four or five that attempted to escape? In my opinion besides Harrington, Sgt Maj Sharrow rode to the north, Nathan Short NE, two others were killed immediately after leaving Last Stand Hill.
I'm not familiar with the 10 from Company F. Fill me in.
Walt
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Post by Walt Cross on Mar 13, 2005 15:43:36 GMT -6
Also, tell me why you say "We know Custer was mad at Tom and Calhoun". Thanks.
Walt
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Post by crzhrs on Mar 14, 2005 12:23:42 GMT -6
We might also add Sgt. Kanipe to the list of "deserters." He said he was ordered to give a message to the pack trains to hurry up. Since no one from Custer's command could dispute that claim . . . Kanipe's testimony has always been believed.
Like so much of the testimony of survivors of the LBH there is much half-truths, contradictions, truth-twisting, and covering up, both to protect one's rear-end and the 7th's reputation.
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Post by Walt Cross on Mar 15, 2005 23:29:36 GMT -6
But why assume he lied? Custer was very concerned about Benteen following up behind him. 1. He needed the extra men, and 2. He needed the ammunition. He sent Martini back to retiterate his need once he saw the size of the village. Kanipe was a sergeant for a reason, obviously his company officers felt he was a man to be trusted and relied upon or he would not have been promoted. I don't think Kanipe was a deserter at all.
Walt Cross (retired Army master sergeant by the way).
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Post by Michael Lentz on Mar 17, 2005 8:30:03 GMT -6
I believe one of the four troopers whose horse gave out was Peter Thompson--one of the Indian Scouts spotted him between Reno hill & Medicine Tail Coulee & he was striking his horse, trying to get him up & to get going. There was another man with Peter--Named Watson(?). I Think Thompson got the Medal of honor as a water carrier on the 26th
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Post by Michael Lentz on Mar 17, 2005 9:14:15 GMT -6
More on Peter Thompson. Walter Camp in his book "Custer in 76" talks about Peter Thompson quite a bit. I like Walter Camp, as he covers many different survivors-Whites as well as Indians--some people he interviewed more than once. He liked the information Peter gave him, but felt there were too many variations of his story to be taken too seriously. Was this because Thompson was protecting his actions that day? Who knows? He did redeem himself on Reno Hill. Many of the horses were tired that day, so that part of Thompson's story could be true. Some of Reno's Indian Scouts saw Thompson trying to coax his horse up.
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Post by Walt Cross on Mar 17, 2005 9:26:01 GMT -6
You are correct about Thompson, he did earn the MOH as a water carrier. Thompson also wrote a diary and it was published. Here is the citation if you are interested.
Magnussen, Daniel O. Ed. Peter Thompson’s Narrative of the Little Bighorn Campaign 1876. The Arthur H. Clark Company, Glendale, California 1974.
Regards.
Walt
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Post by Michael Lentz on Mar 17, 2005 9:38:08 GMT -6
Thanks Walt. You know your stuff. I have always been interested in Lt. Harrington & wasn't his daughter granted post-mistress status of the US Army after his death? When is your book coming out?
Also, could you please give me some information on Nathan Short of Company C? There are many reports of seeing/finding his body/horse far away from the battlefield. Some say it was his body & his horse still had a bags of oats attached to the saddle--others, I believe it was Godfrey, said it was just a skeleton. What became of his remains? Were they buried where found? If so, is this place marked & if so, have they been moved somewhere else?
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Post by Walt Cross on Mar 17, 2005 10:09:05 GMT -6
You are correct, his daughter did become postmistress at West Point. When some politician tried to oust her in favor of his own candidate the local folks rose up in arms and he backed off. His son Harry tried to enter West Point but was physically disqualified. However, his great grandson John Harrington rose to the rank of full colonel after West Point and earned no less than three Silver Stars for Gallantry in Action.
As for Nathan Short, Hardorff's books on the casualties lists several soldiers who claim the body found nearly a day's ride from the LBH at the junction of the Yellowstone and Rosebud Rivers was Short. However, none of them seem to have actually viewed the remains, so the stories are suspect. Personally, I think it was Short. However, you might want to read Hardorff yourself. His research has greatly contributed to the knowledge about the fight and its aftermath, I recommend him.
As for the book, I intended to publish it myself, but the quick interest of the Univ of Nebraska Press to a quiry I sent caused me to submit to them. They have read the manuscript and submitted it to a subject matter expert. I know there are a lot of variables in the publishing business but sure would like to see them publish it, preferably in June on the 129th anniversary of the battle. Also, thank you for your kind words.
Walt
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Post by Michael Lentz on Mar 17, 2005 10:55:50 GMT -6
Thanks again, Walt. Reading your comments & your knowledge of LBH reminds me of the late John Carroll & Robert Utley--you're refreshing. I have been reading about GAC for over 50 years & he's been the scapegoat for failed Army policy against the indians since 6/25/1876. He was a man of his times doing his job & he once stated was that"if he were an indian he would never be found on a reservation." Custer is an easy man to blame, but to me he's as big a hero as Patton.
One more question, please. Do you know if they actually buried Isiah Dorman? I saw his marker from afar the last time I was at LBH, but have never read if his body was actually buried. Have any photos thought to be him surfaced? Were any of the bodies in the valley fight buried where they were found, or where they buried on Last Stand Hill? I would love to see a book/movie on Isiah. Keep up the good work.
Mike
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Post by Walt Cross on Mar 17, 2005 11:40:16 GMT -6
Mike; I can tell you that all bodies were buried that could be found on the 27th and 28th of June. The burials were poorly done and a year later they were exposed and buried again, this time by a burial detail led by Captain Nowlan. Again it was poorly done and a furious hail storm came through exposing the skeletons again. Again a burial detail was sent, but it tooks years and several relocations and reburials before the command was laid to rest. Even then, parts kept showing up on the field and elsewhere, that's why Harrington's remains are in the Smithsonian instead of at the national cemetery at LBH National Monument. The men who supposedly died in the Deep Ravine are still missing. And I have reason to believe the Sioux carried some away for "special treatment" in the village and were later buried at a yet to be determined place in the Big Horn Mountains. This last is only my personal belief based admittedly on only one Indian reference to such a burial.
It was during Nowlan's reburial that Harrington's skull was found, not at Reno's position where Nowlan was working, but miles to the east near the Wolf Mountains by Asst. Surgeon Robert Shufeldt. Shufeldt and a detachment of the 5th Cavalry were returning to Fort Laramie from visiting the Tongue River Cantonment. Later, for his own personal gain, Shufeldt claimed he found the skull in the valley below Reno's position. A statement I debunk in my book. Shufeldt was a very strange individual.
Isaiah's marker is likely placed where he was killed and perhaps initially buried. His remains are most probably under the monument. His is one of the stories that remains to be told in detail about the battle. Maybe you will tell it.
You are much too kind when you compare me to Utley, but thanks. Two books I consider pivotal in my interest in the LBH fight is the one I read as a 5th grade student titled "Comanche, Lone Survivor of the Little Big Horn", and Utley's "Frontier Regulars", the latter read many years later of course.
Walt
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Post by Michael Lentz on Mar 18, 2005 5:55:54 GMT -6
Walt:
Thanks for your informative answers. You're refreshing to read. So many Custer researchers state "facts" when they haven't even checked the sources. Reading about Harrington -- he was always one of my favorites--he never seemd to go for the 'limelight"--could have gone far in the Army maybe. I had read different sources about him breaking away & some said he was the one who killed himself with a shot to the head as this horse gave out & the indians closed in. I can't wait till your book comes out.
I live in Ohio & have been to New Rumley, Ohio-Custer's birthplace-many times. Also Monroe, Michigan & Ft. Riley, Kansas. I can't believe how Custer has become a scapegoat for our policies against the Indians. I also like Tom Custer, Weir, Godfrey.
What do you think about the one possible survivor--Charles Finkle I believe was his name--he's mentioned in the book "Curse Not His Curles"--he lived in Washington state--said he was part of Tom custer's command--his horse bolted from the fight & he made it to a settler's cabin. He told his story late in his life. He said he enlisted under an alias, but none with that name has been found on the muster roles.
Thanks for the information on Dorman. He had a couple of brief scenes in the TV movie "Son of the Morning Star". If I had the money I'd do a movie on him--what a great story--he was able to cross into 3 different cultures--his own, the white man & the indians.
How accurate do you think Charles Kuhlman is in his theories in "Legend Into History"? Also Fred Dustin. I went to a Custer conference in Monroe in 1983--had the great fortunes to meet Dr. Lawrence Frost & Charles Custer-the grandnephew of the General--great memories.
Thank you for your straight-forward research. Like myself, I can tell you're a veteran. Garry Owen & may people keep questioning this battle forever. May Harrington's "real story" see the light of day--keep up the fight!!!
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Post by bigpond on Mar 18, 2005 7:32:13 GMT -6
I must admit at this time,without knowing to much about Kanipe,it seems to me,odd that a Sergeant should be sent back with a message instead of a Private[but I am no military expert] In his report of the battle,kanipe says that Sergeant Finkle's horse gave way,and at that time Tom Custer was close by. He goes on to say,just then the Capt told me to go back and find McDougal/pack-train,and deliver to them the orders just been issued by the General. "tell Mcdougal" he said"to bring the pack train straight across to high ground"if packs get loose,cut them off.Come quick,big Indian camp.He also says that the captain[T.Custer]was the Captain of his troop "C" Of course we all know Martin was given the written orders soon after. Seems a bit odd that a reliable Sergeant,was followed by a Private with practically the same message,and if Tom was with "C"how would he know what the general said ?
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Post by Walt Cross on Mar 18, 2005 10:59:00 GMT -6
Michael; Yes, Harrington has always been a foonote in any history of the battle. If mentioned at all its usually merely that he was one of the missing. From what I can put together by the warrior who killed Harrington, he shot him in the head. He had outdistanced the pursuing Indians because his horse was very powerful and fresh. In his diary Pvt. Thompson mentions that Harrington changed horses just before the movement against the Indians. Grey Earth Track claims to have delivered the killing shot, while Harrington was mortally wounding his brother White Earth Tracking. You can read more on these two Santee Sioux in the column on Inkpaduta if you are interested.
You may wish to obtain the following book on Frank Finkel:
Ellison, Douglas W. 1983. Sole Survivor An Examination of the Frank Finkel Narrative North Plains Press Aberdeen, S.D.
I enjoyed this small book very much. What struck me about Finkel's assertions was that he appears not to have been out for personal gain. Its an assertion that probably should be looked into in depth.
I have heard references to "Legend into History" but have not had the pleasure of reading it yet. I shall add it to my list. Thanks for mentioning it.
Walt
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Post by Walt Cross on Mar 18, 2005 10:59:58 GMT -6
Michael; Yes, Harrington has always been a foonote in any history of the battle. If mentioned at all its usually merely that he was one of the missing. From what I can put together by the warrior who killed Harrington, he shot him in the head. He had outdistanced the pursuing Indians because his horse was very powerful and fresh. In his diary Pvt. Thompson mentions that Harrington changed horses just before the movement against the Indians. Grey Earth Track claims to have delivered the killing shot, while Harrington was mortally wounding his brother White Earth Tracking. You can read more on these two Santee Sioux in the column on Inkpaduta if you are interested.
You may wish to obtain the following book on Frank Finkel:
Ellison, Douglas W. 1983. Sole Survivor An Examination of the Frank Finkel Narrative North Plains Press Aberdeen, S.D.
I enjoyed this small book very much. What struck me about Finkel's assertions was that he appears not to have been out for personal gain. Its an assertion that probably should be looked into in depth.
I have heard references to "Legend into History" but have not had the pleasure of reading it yet. I shall add it to my list. Thanks for mentioning it.
Walt
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