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Post by Tricia on Jun 10, 2005 9:15:08 GMT -6
Leyton, are you really a cousin of THE McLean? Diane-- In Leyton's world, yeah, he is. BUT ... I was developing a character in one of my Custer stories and tried to think of what would sound like a good ol' Suthurn name, hence Rice Leyton--where of course, his first name is his grandmammy's maiden name and his middle name is his momma's maiden name. I took the last name from McLean, VA. Then going under the assumption that in the south, 'y'all be kin,' Leyton became Wilbur's second cousin or nephew or something like that. ... Leyton is always ribbing his pal Autie that he got his family's table and Custer contstantly teases him about his unusual first name ("Who the hell is named after food?"). Haven't worked out the entire character sketch yet, but they attended West Point together .... he's loosely based on Tom Rosser and his friendship with Custer, despite being on different sides of the war. That's the story and I'm sticking to it! Leyton McLean
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Post by Diane Merkel on Jun 12, 2005 21:22:21 GMT -6
That's a great story. In fact, I want to believe it, so I guess I would like to live in Leyton's world.
I spent most of my life in Fairfax County and visited the graves of many of Rosser's men. Finish your story and make them proud!
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Post by George Armstrong Custer on Jun 13, 2005 7:20:05 GMT -6
Scout, here's the well-kown picture of a beardless Burkman holding Dandy and Vic for comparison: Having looked at it in enlargement, the cheekbones and eyes have a clear similarity to the figure standing behind Custer at the tent, and is quite different from Noonan in the bear picture. Ciao, GAC
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Post by Scout on Jun 13, 2005 15:53:10 GMT -6
General,
I thank you for the photo postings...I stand by my call on the photo...I think without a doubt it is Old Neutriment behind Custer in the photo....of course there are so many other Custer photos that are mislabeled...but I think Burkman deserves his dues....In my opinion, that is one of the best photos of Custer ever taken and says so much of the General.
Scout
Scout
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Post by Steve Wilk on Jun 13, 2005 23:03:29 GMT -6
George and Scout; could it be possible that photo #1 outside the tent is from the 1873 Yellowstone expedition and that photo #2, the grizzly, is from the Black Hills in 1874? Was there a photographer with the Yellowstone expedition?
Reason I suggest this is look at the lettering on the tent: "NPRR" (Northern Pacific Railroad). We know that the reason for the Yellowstone expedition was the railroad. That is obviously not an army tent. The NP may have provided Custer with a tent for his personal use. But it may not be Custer's tent that they are posing in front of. Perhaps it is Tom Rosser's tent.
Another thing I find interesting about the tent photo is all three Indians (the one crouching on the right looks like a white man dressed up, complete with paint) seem to be displaying the new Colt .45s. They seem to have made it a point to show these. Now I don't know off hand if the regiment was issued the new Colts in time for the expedition, but if so, then these scouts may have drawn them too, and are proudly displaying their new weapons.
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Post by George Armstrong Custer on Jun 14, 2005 2:57:16 GMT -6
Hi Steve, Yes that possibility was at least suggested by the attribution of photo #1 to the Yellowstone Expedition by Frost and Ambrose. Having considered it as a possibility I reject it for the following reasons:
1/ Frost has, unfortunately, been shown to have made a number of photographic misattributions in his The Custer Album. The original hardback edition of this book, with its iconic dustjacket, from Superior Publishing remained in print from 1964 for over a decade (the only way to tell a first edition is the wording 'FIRST EDITION' below the '1964' year on the first copies - afterwards Superior continued to issue the book with its 1964 publication date). Anyway, I can't understand why the later editions didn't correct the glaring photographic errors of the first ( I know its been reprinted in the past decade or so by other publishers, but I haven't seen one of these and don't know if they contain corrections). As to Ambrose, he also captions photo #1 as the Yellowstone, and points out the NPRR tent. I don't wish to speak ill of the dead, but Ambrose has become an extremely problematic historian, however, and accusations of plagiarism regarding his WWII books have been shown to have their roots in his Custer book, which also included swathes of unattributed material from other authors. In a nutshell, I don't rate Ambrose as a reliable source.
2/ The altogether more scholarly Paul Andrew Hutton, in his The Custer Reader, captions photo #1 as being from the Black Hills Expedition of '74. To clinch this, I think, Hutton notes that this is an Illingworth photo - it therefore has to be Black Hills.
3/ You make an interesting point about the Colts - and I'm not sure about whether the 7th had the M1873 Colt issued in time for the Yellowstone. But if they had, I don't know if these novelties would have filtered down to each of the scouts as the photo shows - I'd suggest they'd more likely have had to wait a while before getting their hands on one of these beauties! It's therefore more likely that they're showing off these new acquisitions in the '74 expedition.
4/ Just looking at photo's #1 & #2, Custer seems to be wearing exactly the same outfit - same fringing to the elkhide jacket, same hat. And he also seems to display a similar degree of beard growth. Custer, of course, had several elkhide jackets and trousers, each quite distinctive in terms of trim etc.
5/ If the NPRR tent in photo #1 is being used by Custer, and was given to him by the railroad for use on the Yellowstone, wouldn't it be just like our man to have hung onto it for use in future operations, such as the Black Hills in '74?
Regards, George
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Post by Scout on Jun 14, 2005 6:39:39 GMT -6
Steve and George,
Good point on the tents General....the same tent is in both photos. I looked through a number of other photos from that expedition and Custer's tent in photo #1 appears to be the same type of tent over his shoulder in grizzly photo #2....now check out the tent in the in the Expedition photo pg.264 of the Grafe & Horsted book..Bloody Knife stands in front of the door flap....although this is no Revelation itself it appears to be the exact same tent....the NPRR tent... I can find no other tents in the other photos that resemble it....I think it is an important clue in these photos...same clothes, same tent..also in the Grizzly photos, there appears to be a dead elk lying in the tall grass by the tent...isn't there an account by someone who visited the Custer house that speaks of a bear skin rug? is this the bar?
I agree with you General on Ambrose...God Bless him on getting the D-Day Museum going...but his LBH stuff is highly suspect.
Scout
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Post by Tricia on Jun 14, 2005 12:36:29 GMT -6
Considering this is a photo of Burkman, are those Armstrong's dogs in the back of the image--or do some belong to Tom? And was Maida still alive at this point--I seem to remember she died along the way--but can't place where. I know she was a deerhound ... and that sure looks like one (the dog directly behind JB).
Regards, Leyton McLean
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Post by George Armstrong Custer on Jun 17, 2005 5:27:46 GMT -6
Ok Leyton, a brief check reveals that it cannot be Custer's 'Scotch staghound'* Maida in the backgound of this photograph. Here's why:
1/ Dandy was purchased by Custer on November 22 1868.**
2/ Vic was acquired in Spring 1872.***
3/ Therefore the two horses could not have been photographed together with Burkman before 1872.
4/ Maida was shot by a trooper in 1869 - three years before the earliest date at which the Burkman photo could have been taken.****
*George Armstrong Custer, My Life on the Plains, p. 184.
**Lawrence A. Frost, General Custer's Thoroughbreds, pp.142 - 143 & 254.
***Ibid., p. 237 & 243 & 254.
**** Custer [ibid], & Connel Son of the Morning Star, p. 205.
Although these facts clinch it, the odds were always against the hound in this particular photo happening to be Maida - Custer had so damned many of them!
Regards, George
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Post by El Crab on Jul 6, 2005 1:30:01 GMT -6
Captain McLean, Concerning John Burkman and the book...''Old Neutriment''...I think the book is suspect, while author Glendolin Wagner relies on the O'Donnell's relationship with the old striker, some of it appears to be fiction....she mentions scout Billy Cross and the battle of the Little Big Horn, but there is no such person...the name ''Billy Cross'' is a fictitious name with its roots in one of those crazy sole survivor tales that was originally published in the NEW YORK HERALD in the early 1900's...I think this is a dead give away on the book's reliability.....while much of it may be true... Wagner's research may be questionable. Anyway, that's my story and I'm sticking to it. Scout There may have been a scout named William Cross riding with Reno. What you're thinking of is the story in The Custer Myth, pg. 356, concerning Custer allegedly being led into an ambush by one Billy Cross. It was indeed in the New York Herald. But Billy/William Cross does not appear to be a fictitious name. Just one that was conveniently used for a fictitious story.
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Post by Scout on Jul 6, 2005 6:45:17 GMT -6
El Crabo,
You are correct....there was an actual enlisted private named Billy Cross. I assumed he was not an actual trooper but a contract scout of some sort....of course the double cross story is absolute horse manure but I doubted the scout part. Is he listed on the Lbha site BECAUSE of the crazy NY Herald story or is he listed somewhere else as a scout.
Either way, thanks for bringing this to my attention....I shall dig deeper.
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Post by El Crab on Jul 6, 2005 9:50:07 GMT -6
El Crabo, You are correct....there was an actual enlisted private named Billy Cross. I assumed he was not an actual trooper but a contract scout of some sort....of course the double cross story is absolute horse manure but I doubted the scout part. Is he listed on the Lbha site BECAUSE of the crazy NY Herald story or is he listed somewhere else as a scout. Either way, thanks for bringing this to my attention....I shall dig deeper. *Stanislas Roy told Walter Camp he didn't think Billy Cross went into the valley with the Reno battalion. **Strike(s) Two told Camp that an interpreter went with the scouts that left Reno the night of the 25th. Camp seems to think this was Billy Cross. ***The scout Soldier told Camp that Billy Cross was among the same group of 10 scouts. He names Billy Cross as Ieska, and that he rode a buckskin pony. * pg. 111 of Custer in 76 ** pg. 185 *** pg. 189
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JessM
New Member
Posts: 3
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Post by JessM on Feb 23, 2015 5:09:45 GMT -6
Hello, I just joined. I recently discovered I resemble Burkman quite a bit. I'm working on getting a outfit to portray him in the future. Anyway, something was brought to my attention recently and I checked into it about Burkman's reported suicide. From what is written in the book Old Neutriment and what was reported in the Billings Gazette do not match.
He carried a gun which he had purchased for the express purpose of ending all his troubles and the rage shook his burly frame, for he had been cheated, the revolver wouldn’t break. “Look Bud!” he roared. “Jist take a look!” John’s mildest whisper, tempered by a rare mood of geniality, was a roar. When wrought up his voiced fairly boomed its rage. As he displayed the weapon his gnarled, blue-veined old hands shook. “Look! He charged me seven dollars for the thing and it’s no good. I can’t make it work.” “What do you want of a gun anyway, John?” “Going to rid the earth of some rubbish.” Since intermittently for the past ten years John had been planning to shoot himself, thus making room for others of more account, Mr. O’Donnell felt little concern. He laughed and patted the old fellow’s shoulder. “Throw that thing away, John. When you come up to dinner Sunday I’ll give you one that will work.”…… John’s eyes flashed suspicious defiance. Quickly he thrust the weapon into his coat pocket…
Old Neutriment: Chapter II (TAPS) Pages 28-29
Burkman’s body was discovered lying on a porch settee by John Boyle, keeper of the rooming house, a moment after he heard a revolver shot and rushed to the porch from whence it seemed to come. The old man was slouched down with his head against the arm of the settee on which he had sat for hours every day since his return from California 10 days ago. A bullet wound just over and forward of the right ear shows where the bullet had made entry and a lump on the left side of the forehead just over the left eye gave evidence of where it made exit from the skull and remained lodged under the skin. Near Burkman’s right hand lay a 38-caliber revolver of cheap make, purchased by the old veteran on Thursday, apparently with the thought of suicide in mind.
The Billings Gazette – Morning Edition: Saturday, November 7, 1925
The entry and exit/lump is a strange angle. Your arm would be in an un-natural position for that kind of shot to kill one's self. Near 50 years of survivors guilt... I question that. Maybe it was a mercy killing or perhaps outright murder.
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Post by fred on Feb 23, 2015 7:34:37 GMT -6
Hello, I just joined. I recently discovered I resemble Burkman quite a bit. Well, "jjmj63," welcome to the madhouse. I suspect you and I have met before, on Facebook. If so, I am delighted to see you here as well. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by tubman13 on Feb 23, 2015 10:30:25 GMT -6
Jim, you know more about J.B. than I did, that is for sure. Welcome!
Regards, Tom
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