Custer's Guns

I recall (from memory) one warrior stating that after the fight they took many "soldier things" from the battle, perhaps even including some remains, and buried them in "The most sacred place." quite likely somewhere in the Big Horn Mountains. They were deathly afraid of retaliation if these items were found on them after the fight. I speculate that is where Custer's guns are. Care to go exploring?

Walt

While on the Sioux Reservations years back I picked up two Lakota Indians who were hitchhiking. They invited me to their homes and for whatever reasons we talked about the wars of the past. They told me they have buried many things captured from whites and soldiers and take them out on special occasions. They say they have many guns but are afraid to tell others because they may find them and sell them.

I'm sure the Sioux and other Plains Indians still have "booty" from the old days and would be a history lovers treasure . . . but fear of retribution still lingers, especially among the old ones.

If I remember correctly, Custer's pair of pistols were 2 English made double action revolvers, given to him, courtesy of British ambassadors on some special occasion. I understand that he favored these pistols for several reasons, one being that they were of a new design that facilitated a rapid fired shell ejection and reloading system, but I can't document that. On the Remington rolling block question, I don't believe that it was a military issue rifle, but a custom sporting model version, from what I gather from articles that I have read and many various photographs that I have studied of him, some where he's standing by some game that he shot. Just after the Civil War was over, the US government ordered firing tests for various rifles by different mfg'rs. and pared them down to 3 different specimens and tested them extensively against each other and the Springfield trapdoor came in first, the Remington rolling block second and the Sharps third. Many critics claimed that the government was biased by selecting the government made Springfield over the privately mfg'd. Remington & Sharps, both employing very advanced breech mechanisms, thought much superior to the Springfield trap door. Consequently, the US Springfield Armory were ordered to convert 50,000 Civil War issue muzzle loading muskets to the Allin trapdoor system, but General Sherman protested vehemently, preferring the superior Remington Rider rolling block system and was accommodated by the US Gov't. by ordering the US Arsenal to produce some 10,000 Remington military rifles for Sherman's troops. Custer may have obtained & carried one of these but I do know this for a fact: Before he got the Remington, he used a Springfield Model 1866 cal 50-70 trapdoor Allin system conversion of the 1863 Springfield .58 cal. muzzle loader. I am sure of this because I have my great grandfather's, which he used to shoot bears and am very familiar with this rifle. Custer had it sporterized and is pictured outside of his tent holding it, posing with some of his favorite Crow Indian scouts such as Curly, Goes Ahead, Hairy Moccasins, White Man Runs Him, Half Yellow face, White Swan, etc. and his dogs. There are other photos that I have studied extensively showing him with it - among those a studio shot of him posing with Buffalo Bill Cody and the Grand Duke Alexis of Russia just prior to the big Buffalo hunt arranged for the Duke. Buffalo Bill also used the same type of Springfield rifle in his early Buffalo Hunting days and used his 1873 Winchester cal 44-40 for his trick shooting exhibitions, (it wasn't powerful enough to kill buffalo effectively, unless at a much closer range and sometimes required more shots, by the way). The Spencer's superiority was really evident when the trooper was firing and reloading while riding his horse, especially at a gallop. After removing the empty depleted magazine, he instantly removed a fresh 7 round magazine from his pouch and inserted it in the butt of his Spencer carbine after every 7 th shot, which was much easier and faster than reloading a Springfield Carbine through a single shot trap door breech one round each time after he fired it ( that required the trooper to cock the hammer back and open the breech to eject the empty fired cartridge case and replace it with a new cartridge and then close the breech). In my opinion, Custer assumed a false since of security and superiority when he made his final charge at the LBH Indian camp, not taking into consideration that he didn't have the tremendous Spencer firepower that he previously had during his clashes with Stuart's Confederate Cavalry that drove the Rebs back at Gettysburg and other various battle engagements elsewhere. This was because he had always achieved his objectives and decisively defeated the enemy during his numerous successful victories, due to a great degree because of the Spencers used during his numerous Civil War cavalry engagements, but this time his firepower was diminished significantly as his troopers didn't have but 1/7 of the firepower that they had during the War, but he didn't take that factor into consideration ( also the fact that there were an estimated some 5 to 9 thousand Sioux and Cheyenne, etc. encamped), I suppose. His bravery, bravado and fearlessness was a great asset in Battle, but in this situation it wasn't enough to make up the difference between victory or defeat. One trooper with a Spencer was equivalent to 7 men with a single shot. For example, in the Thrilling movie "Son of the Morning Star" a lot of these facts are accurately borne out. In the beginning the troopers are shown, including Custer, carrying Spencers and are later shown carrying Springfields to the LBH. I hope that this limited info is somewhat helpful, as much yet needs to be uncovered.......But thats what make it such a challenge. Thanks for your indulgence !

Mark Gallear at the Custer Association of Great Britain wrote:

"The Colt [revolver] was sighted to 25 yards at the time of the Battle of the Little Big Horn, but would be later sighted to 50 yards."

Anyone know the source for his comment?

Walt

One possible clue: 'a refugee Sioux in Canada' had one of Keogh's revolvers, and offered to return it (according to the Langellier/Cox/Pohanka biography). Maybe Custer's revolvers went the same route?

Hello Jimbo,
I'm afraid - like so much in Custeriana - that references to the pistols carried by Custer at LBH have become a mish-mash of poorly understood data from several sources. I've found researching the topic to be, to put it mildly, frustrating.

It should be understood firstly, perhaps, that the Webley model 'Royal Irish Constabulary' (RIC) revolver was an entirely seperate weapon from the Webley model 'The British Bulldog' revolver. Further, the model 'RIC' preceded the model 'TBBD' by several years, and so the former cannot be said to have been produced in 'style' of the latter; if anything, the reverse would be the case.

Our primary source for Custer carrying "two Bulldog self-cocking, English, white-handled pistols, with a ring in the butt for a lanyard," is of course Major (later General) E. S. Godfrey's letter of Jaunary 16 1896. This was written in response to specific queries from the artist Edgar S. Paxson, then engaged in backgound research for his massive in-progress project Custer's Last Stand. Godfrey's detailing of the pistols which he observed Custer carrying on June 25, 1876 ought, you might think, have settled the matter. Problems of interpreting Godfrey's description have arisen over the years, however. One of these I mentioned at the start of this post - the confusing by some of the Webley m. 'RIC' with the Webley m. 'TBBD'. This canard is easily put to rest - the m. 'RIC' was entered production at Webley's some seven years prior to the introduction of the m. 'TBBD'.

Another element which muddies the waters is confusion about when, and from whom, Custer obtained the pistols he carried on June 25 1876. Jimbo has repeated the old chestnut that they were Webley m. 'RIC' revolvers, and were a gift from the British Lord Berkeley Paget; but Jimbo is in good company - Webley Scott, the current owners of the Webley trade mark repeat this falsehood on their own website! Like most such stories, there is a kernel of truth behind this, but of the pair of pistols presented by Berkeley Paget, only one went to Custer and it was not a Webley m. 'RIC', and neither did he carry it at LBH. The facts are these:

In summer 1869, Custer was 'tenting on the plains' with wife Libbie and brother Tom at Big Creek near Fort Hays, Kansas. From there they hosted buffalo hunts for the travelling English Lords Berkeley Paget and, according to which source you read, either Lord Henry Cavendish or Lord Waterford. In a grand gesture of appreciation, Berkeley Paget presented Custer and brother Tom with a cased Webley .44 Galand & Sommerville revolver each. Tom's was sold at auction on behalf of the Charles A. Custer Family Collection by Butterfield & Butterfield of San Francisco on April 4, 1995. It made $77,000.

Tom Custer's Galand & Sommerville, th gift of Berkeley Paget:


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