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Post by banzai on Oct 9, 2011 22:16:59 GMT -6
Answer to original question, was any effort made to recover US Army weapons from LBH is a resounding yes. An 1879 US Army report states that 49 Springfield model 1873s were recovered from the Indians, some (if not all) undoubtedly from the LBH. See excellent article at www.lonestarrifle.com/Custer.htmlthat asserts the Army had 69 Springfields on the Custer site, and the article at forum.treasurenet.com/index.php?topic=223755.0 that cites the number of firearms confiscated from Indians detailed in an 1879 US Army report (NFI). On a related note, does anyone know the serial numbers of the Springfields issued to the 7th Cav on 1 July 1874? I found one hanging on the wall of a friend's basement and his daughter says that her great-uncle found it under a log on the Sioux reservation in 1920...
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Post by godagesil on Feb 4, 2018 13:29:38 GMT -6
Col. Ranald McKenzie recovered a lot of articles from the Northern Cheyenne when he quelled them and forced them to turn in their guns prior to moving to the reservation. They recovered the remains of a silk guidon, and a lot of other items. Some guns were recovered as well. This came from the book, "Bad Hand" which documented McKenzie's efforts on the frontier.
There was a book published in the 1970's called Custer Battle Guns. It has pictures of authenticated weapons used at the LBH fight.
Just to get in a little Custer bashing. McKenzie got seven brevets in the Civil War to Custer's five. He was wounded seven times, and was called by US Grant The most able young officer in the Army. His 4th Cavalry was the go to fire brigade for Grant, Sherman and Sheridan. McKenzie lost fewer men in nearly ten years of Indian fighting than Custer did in on afternoon.
Unlike McKenzie Custer never learned that all you had to do was capture their horses and destroy their teepees. McKenzie ultimately died of complications of a mental breakdown brought on it is now suspected from Post Traumatic Stress Disorder brought on by his wounds suffered in the war and his non stop campaigning against the Comanche, and northern Plains Indians.
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Post by noggy on Feb 5, 2018 2:18:20 GMT -6
This came from the book, "Bad Hand" which documented McKenzie's efforts on the frontier.
I`ve wanted to read this or any other good bio on Mackenzie, is this one you/people would recommend?
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Post by tubman13 on Feb 6, 2018 6:09:54 GMT -6
I heard a different story about Bad Hand's mental issues. Six or so years after the Dull Knife fight Machenzie bought a Texas ranch and was engaged to be married; however, he about this time began to demonstrate odd behavior which was attributed to a fall from a wagon at Fort Sill, Oklahoma, in which he injured his head. Showing signs of mental instability, he was retired from the Army on March 24, 1884 for general paresis of the insane. Mackenzie died at his sister's home in New Brighton, Staten Island, New York, and is buried in West Point National Cemetery.
Regards, Tom
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Post by keithpatton on Mar 21, 2019 11:55:54 GMT -6
You have to recall that the Sioux fled to Canada and were fearful or reprisals. So any souvenirs or battle trophies were undoubtedly seen as liabilities. In fact many of the early accounts of the battle reflected the Aboriginals telling the white interrogators exactly what they wanted to hear. The Cavalry went down to defeat nobly to the last man and all that other nonsense.
Those who did capture guns kept or secreted them away. I don't know of any attempts by the army to connect guns turned in or captured from Aboriginals to the Custer defeat except one. Col. Ranald McKenzie and his 4th Cavalry recovered a lot of battlefield artifacts from the N. Cheyenne the following year when he was sent by Sheridan and Sherman to clean up Custer's mess. The items were listed or mentioned in one of the books I read about him. It was either "Bad Hand" or "The Most Promising Young Officer"((in the US Army) at least in the opinion of US Grant).
Pistols were as a rule not very highly prized by Aboriginals. I recall one being recovered from the battlefield because it was broken, having been used to bash it's former owner on the head by his killer. I doubt Custer's Webleys would have been very prized since they used non standard cartridges and wouldn't have been much use or even destroyed if ammunition not meant for them was used. This happened a lot when captured arms were used with whatever ammunition was on hand.
McKenzie lost fewer men in nine years quelling the Comanche, uprisings on the Mexican Border and the N. Cheyenne than Custer did in one afternoon.
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Post by keithpatton on Mar 21, 2019 12:05:11 GMT -6
Bad Hand or The Most Promising Young Officer are two McKenzie bios I would recommend.
As to his mental illness. Today there isn't a historian worth the name that would diagnose McKenzie with anything other than PTSD. The man was wounded numerous times one was a disfiguring injury to his hand. Another was a penetrating wound of a bullet that went in one shoulder crossed his upper back and exited his other shoulder. That wound and his hand caused him chronic pain the remainder of his life.
To add to his stress he was deployed almost without letup from the end of the Civil War until his discharge in the 1880's. It would be like deployment to Afghanistan for nearly thirty years.
The man's has been unjustly accused of having syphilis and that being the cause of his mental decline, and this is the face of his self imposed almost acetic celibacy on the frontier.
I guess in the vacuum of a real explanation the writers reached for the most sensational to fill in the void. Based on his performance and slow erratic decline and instability I would say it was PTSD related.
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Post by tubman13 on Mar 21, 2019 16:25:38 GMT -6
KP, I agree with much of what you put forth above. I have no earthly idea about the VD $hit. I do know it was somewhat common and could be acquired near W.P. Just ask George.
Regards, Tom
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Post by brownj5300 on Jul 19, 2019 19:56:02 GMT -6
This story is not really mine to tell so i will be somewhat vague. I met some folks at a festival, who upon learning thst i was leaving the next day to go visit the battlefield, showed me something. He opened a box and inside was a pistol. He explained that it was a Webley Bulldog and Custer was known to have a pair. (There is a photo of him at home and hanging in the back is what appeares to be a pair). I was told that these were ivory handled, not the usual material, and Custers were ivory handled. Engraved on the firearm were the initials GAC.
I was told that they had an aquantaince up in North Dakota, i think, who had a trading post and that some Native Americans had traded them for supplies. They had been in the family for generations. The trading post guy contacted this man, knowing of his interest.
Take it for what you will. It was one of the more amazing points of my life.
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Post by nomann on Oct 29, 2019 17:22:00 GMT -6
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