New what if?...

[alanw]

What if Reno had stayed in the woods? Many people are heavily critical of Reno (and Moylan) for not holding his position in the woods.

How might the outcome of the battle have differed if Reno had stayed put? For example could it at have tied up significant Indian forces which contributed to Custer's defeat?

Alan

[elisabeth]

Alan,

That's a difficult one. On the one hand, there were certainly enough Indians to deal with both commands; but on the other, the Indians might not have seen it that way ...

There are two big imponderables, it seems to me. One is Custer's intentions (as being discussed now in the "Martini plus 30 minutes" thread). If his idea was to charge the village at MTF, this might have let him do so -- but a lot of good arguments have been put forward for this not being his plan. Or if his actions had anything to do with trying to take pressure off Reno, as has been suggested, he might have felt less compelled to do that if he knew Reno was holding his own. But assuming he'd still have followed the same course regardless of what Reno was doing, it does seem likely that the influx of warriors from the south mightn't have happened at all, as well as fewer coming from the west. In which case the Calhoun/Keogh collapse might not have taken place -- which could have changed things pretty radically.

The other imponderable is Benteen. It's one thing to decide not to commit his green troops to save a mere dozen or so stragglers from an obviously whipped command; but if he'd arrived at Ford A to find troops forted up in the timber, fighting off Indians, he'd surely have had no option. (Apart from all else, he has no reason at this point to think it's anything but the whole regiment, Custer included. He knows of no battle elsewhere. And gallantly riding to the rescue, forcing Custer to be grateful, would be irresistible ...!)

What would have happened then, one can only guess. If the Indians had turned on Benteen, and Reno had remained in the timber, Benteen's battalion might not have lasted long -- after which the Indians could deal with Reno and the packs at their leisure. But even in reality, Benteen's appearance on the bluffs caused quite a few Indians to make a smart exit well before word came of Custer threatening the village. Perhaps a surprise charge by Benteen on the Indians' rear might have had the same effect, and sent them scurrying. In which case Custer would still be facing the full warrior complement -- but their mood might have been somewhat less gung-ho than it was after the triumph of Reno's rout. And what was left of Reno's and Benteen's battalions might, if in good enough shape, have been able to pursue them through the village. Custer could then strike his own blow, from the flank or the north or both.

The one thing that it's kind of hard to see happening is Benteen seeing Reno in the timber, and sauntering nonchalantly past on the bluffs to join Custer. So if Keogh's battalion was deployed where it was to wait for Benteen and Reno had held, their position would have been as pointless as it turned out to be in reality ...

[crzhrs]

Here's a post I entered a few months back about this particular "WHAT IF"

John Ryan was a CW veteran and a survivor of the LBH and Reno's Fight. After retirement he wrote frequent articles and letters documenting his military career. He also wrote a 600 page memoir.

On March 16, 1926, seven months before his death, he wrote his last letter to E. A. Brininstool (LBH historian)

Some parts of it follow:

He owed his own survival to Major Reno

He held Reno in high esteem, terming him "a gallant and brave officer."

The long-standing belief that Reno & Benteen cowardly abandoned Custer was hogwash. "I think Major Reno did the best thing he could do possibly, and I, and others who made their escape there, can thank Reno for being alive today."

That Reno was drunk that day . . . was untrue.

In addition:

"They blamed Reno for not going to Custer's assistance. In the first place, there were ten of the Indians to one of us. In order to go to Custer we would have had to charge through the Indian camp--almost four miles. We would have had to fight the Indians in the camp, then cross the river and go up the bluffs where Custer was--and there never would have been a man of us left. I don't believe there would have been a man left out of the three companies before we got out of the Indian camp."

"There was a high point of bluffs situated so that they extended up toward the river in the rear of Reno's position in the timber. If he had remained in the timber, the Indians could have shot right down on his command from the bluffs."

And suppose Benteen had come in a little earlier to join Reno--he would have to go down and cross the river to where we were and I can tell you the Indians would have made short work of his battalian--and the train, too."

Very interesting comments from a veteran military man.

The full article and letter appears in the May 2005 Greasy Grass Magazine.

[PhillyBlair]

Whatever we think of Reno's decision it's important that we don't project the remainder of the battle results on his decision to leave the timber. As Elisabeth noted, he had no idea where Custer was, where Benteen was, etc. In his mind it had reached the point of "fending for himself." It would be unfair to hinge the remainder of the battle on this one decision, given the lack of information Reno had.

Of course there are conflicting reports as to how long he could have held the timber. Some -- Ryan among them -- believed they would be sitting ducks in the timber. Reno says this himself in the description of the battle that he wrote just before he died. Others claim it was the best place to be, and they could have remained there indefinitely.

Here's what I've wondered, and forgive me if the question is overly simplistic, but I'm sure someone here will know the answer: how thick was the timber in June, 1876? There have been historical battles that have dragged on for days because an army had the advantage of thick timber to use as a defensive. Does anyone know the answer to this? If Reno's men were darting between trees to avoid bullets, that's one thing. If they could form a defensive perimeter and use trees and brush to move and form lines, that's another.

And then there's the issue of fire....could they have been "smoked out" had they remained there?

[fred]

Alan--

I do not think anything would have changed except more troops would have died. Crzhrs' quotes of John Ryan summarize it pretty well, I think. My only problem w/ Reno was the manner in which he left the timber, not that he did and not even his timing. Sure, he could have stayed a bit longer, but who's to say? There is no way he could have lasted in those woods. The Indians were turning his flanks, crossing the river in his rear, taking up his troops from the valley side, burning the woods, infiltrating the woods... How much longer do you think he could have lasted?

As for Benteen... he still would have taken the route he did. The note was from Custer and he would have followed Custer's trail. There was so much dust & smoke in the valley, how could Benteen have realized what was happening in the timber? And he could not have assumed the whole command was there; how could he explain the trail? How could he not follow the scout's pointing or Martini's directions? Martini knew Custer wasn't in the woods & if Reno had stayed, Benteen would surely have asked Martini what the hell was going on down there.

To me, if Reno had not left the timber, the entire command would have been destroyed, Benteen w/ Custer and Reno in the woods. I doubt Reno could have survived 30 more minutes there.

Best wishes,
Fred.

[crzhrs]

Philly:

I think the thick cover worked to the Indians' way of fighting. Infiltrating, taking advantage of cover, spring up out of nowhere to attack. Reno's command did not have that type of training and once on the defensive lost all semblance of aggression.

Notice the scouts--Herendeen, Girard, & Jackson used cover quite well to avoid detection, while most of the soldiers ran for it.

Of course Dorman & Reynolds, both scouts, tried running only to be killed.

[PhillyBlair]

Excellent, point crzhrs. I had never considered the training and type of battle implied with that. Your point about the scouts is very good. Thanks.

[dcary]

Had Reno remained in the woods, the Indians would have to oppose both Reno and whatever materialized of Custer’s force at or near the ford. (I’m putting it this way because there seem so many theories concerning troops at or near MTF) It seems to me the Indians’ absolute number one priority was defending their noncombatants; I feel they would have kept a force between any body of troops and the non-coms.

Sklenar’s analysis of battlefield movements would seem to support this; he maintains that Yates led E and F away from the MTF area to Calhoun hill in an orderly march that was paralleled on the other side of the river by a body of Indians who seemed bent on keeping between them and the non-coms.

Had Reno stayed in the woods, I think the Indian reaction to the MTF foray would have actually come quicker than I have read in a couple Indian accounts. Reno’s exit and positioning on the hill undoubtedly drew many Indians farther away from MTF than the woods – meaning it would take longer to notify them and for them to get back.

I do think that had Reno stayed in the woods the Indians might have lifted his encirclement (while still opposing him) if a threat developed at MTF, and especially if Benteen showed up in some third location. This because of their one super-sensitive area – the non-coms.

How the battle might have developed from there is hard to say.

On the plus side, from the cavalry’s viewpoint, Reno would have had mobility, probably fewer casualties and a feeling of weathering a storm rather than the mad scramble he actually led. (His assertion that it was a charge is something I don’t think he ever totally believed himself, though he tried to, and I think it might have severely hampered his effectiveness in the actual battle). He and his unit would be in better shape.

I am assuming, of course, that the Indians would not have wiped them out in the woods. If they disliked assaulting fortified positions, I can’t believe they’d relish a woods fight.

My sense is that Benteen would have joined someone – maybe Custer -- had he been able to tell what was going on apart from Reno.

God only knows how many further force-divisions Custer may have carried out with his five troops.

Then, of course, there is the packtrain. I don’t know where all these elements might have gone. It seems a very tactical situation.

I do think, though, that had Reno been united with Benteen and the packs in the woods, the Indians would not have crossed the river toward Custer in the force they did, and gone away from the noncoms. That alone would guarantee a different outcome, but not necessarily one Custer might regard as a victory. Maybe on the order of the Rosebud with heavy cav losses.

I think the Indians would have left on the 26th had this happened. Maybe even earlier if they got wind of the Gibbon-Terry column’s advance.

[Tony]

Excellant points, but I can't help wondering:

Benteen comes to ford "A" (timing has everthing to do with this). Remenber Reno's retreat took about 10-15 minutes, and then 10 minutes later Benteen arrives--a total of approx. 25 minutes. What would have happened in those 25 minutes if Reno stayed in the timber? Would he have been burned out? Would the warriors have infiltrated by then? Would the troops have panic and ran? Who knows!!
But, lets say that Reno holds and makes a good fight of it. Benteen sees whats happening (maybe gets word from Reno scouts) and charges the warriors rear. At that time, Custer is now attacking from the East, or is seen by the warriors on the bluffs east of their village (in reality, warriors left Reno's front to check that advance). I believe panic sets in, as the warriors really don't know who or how many are charging from ford "A", or how many or what is coming from the East. They can't ride back through the village and get prepared to cross the LBH and attack Custer as they did---because now there are countless soldiers atttacking down the valley floor hot on their rear. If they do, it leaves the entire village open and their rear unprotected. The only alternative is to collect their families and disperse asap, before Benteen gets into the village (maybe by this time joined by Reno). They could have fought a rear-guard action to attempt to stem Benteen's attack, but that certanily does not permit an attack to the East to stop Custer. I think things would have been different---but again this is all conjecture and open to debate--as usual.

[alanw]

Thank you for your replies. Don't get me wrong, I am not one of those critical of Reno leaving the timber, or necessarily the manner in which he did.

The timber option may have been fine in say a civil war setting. Reno could have held out till his ammunition ran out, or his casualty rate had reached unacceptable numbers and simply surrendered if not relieved. Alternatively, a portion of the command could have attempted a rearguard action allowing the larger part to withdraw and again surrender etc. However, here Reno was outnumbered perhaps 10 to 1 with Indians flanking and amongst his command. If he didn't get the hell out of there and quick, in his view he and his command were facing imminent annihilation. Even if the timber did offer good cover, how long would Reno's ammunition have lasted? I must make it clear I am not a fan of Reno, Custer or even St Benteen's actions during the battle, but in all honesty who amongst us would not have been passing bricks in his situation?

Alan

[crzhrs]

Surrender??!!!!!

The Indians didn't take any prisoners . . . especially soldiers . . . unless they were women or children, and even then rarely.

Save the Last Bullet for Yourself was ingrained in every white person.

The psychological aspect of being taken alive by Indians and the resulting torture played a major factor in many soldier's actions.

[Scout]

Cavalry in the woods...dosen't even sound good. I agree with most all of you. One thing I noticed at the times I was at the battlefield was the area by the river. Now I know it is different today but still, those are not big trees there. Not like the trees in eastern America. Thick vegetaion grows by the river. I don't think those so called woods would have offered that much protection had the Indians worked their way into them. And I think they would have eventually been fired on from the surrounding hills and driven out regardless of any attempt to stay.

[AZ Ranger]

Scout Is that picture you use of DeRudio?

[alanw]

crzhrs

Surrender??!!!!!

The Indians didn't take any prisoners . . . especially soldiers

Sorry for any confusion here, but the scenario was relating to a civil war engagement, not one where they knew no quarter was to be given. I was trying to say that if Reno had found himself in the situation in say the civil war he would have had the option of surrender. Therefore he probably reacted somewhat differently here than he would have done in previous military action.

Alan

[Scout]

Ranger...yea, DeRudio...or as Benteen called him Count Nocount.