Benteen: Mistakes? Blatant Disregard?

[harpskiddie]

Robert Newton Price from Frederick William Benteen 6 March 1879:

"Yr notes of 5th and 6th came along today. Ditto photos of yourself and Doll......I also got the copy of Bay Window paper you sent me....The review of the black person's book was well, very well thought - and I liked it muchly.

".....I heard not a criticism on the nature of my evidence in Reno case, 'tho Gilbert has written me since that it was wholly satisfactory to Army people, which of necessity it must have been, as it was true, and they knew just what I thought long before trial. I was close mouthed as I could be, ot my testimony might possibly looked a too high flying of my own kite........

"......Whittaker had a recent letter in the N.Y. Sun, in which Genl. Merritt, Reno, Mike Sheridan, Genl. S. and myself catch, well Merry H. Can't you go for that Heathen Chinee? Rasp up your bolt of sarcasm which is so well hurled and give him a shake up for me. If you haven't seen the article, will send it to you................."

[Gumby]

Dark Cloud was quite right in defense of Benteen. Benteen never said that at the time Martini gave him the message he thought Custer and his command had been killed. He said that he now (1879) thought that Custer and his command had been killed by the time Martini gave him the message. That also destroys the theory that he came up with that idea for the purpose of defending himself against any court-martial charges. If he didn't think that at the time of the battle he had no defense should he need one.

As for reporting nothing, what would have been the purpose? His orders were to pitch into anything he came across (obviously Indians) and send word when he found something. Custer would have been aware of the lack of a fight when he heard no shooting from Benteen's direction.

If Custer had wanted Benteen sooner he should have recalled him sooner. He should have sent for Benteen as soon as he had sent Reno to cross the river not wait to do so after he had gotten into MTC. As to any sinister ideas that might have been in Benteen's mind, the idea is rediculous. If you read Benteen's letters prior LBH battle you will find that he didn't like Custer much but it had not grown into the bitter hatred he later felt for him. He rarely even mentions Custer in his letters until after the battle. The idea that he would have allowed 210 men to die just to get back at George Custer is even more rediculous. Before you can figure out why people make the decisions that they have, you must first figure out what information they had to work with at the time they made the decisions. Benteen had no way of knowing that Custer and Reno had separated or that Custer was going to be killed no matter what Benteen chose to do. In fact, all the information he had at the time was that the Indians were running and the regiment was kicking butt. The note from Cooke placed the emphasis on bringing the packs which combined with Kanipe's and Martini's misleading reports led him to believe that Custer had won the fight and that all that remained was for the mopping up of any remaining resistance.

I have read the silly theories that Benteen should have known that Custer expected him to attack along Reno's left flank or that he was expected to attack between Reno and Custer's commands. My question is how could he have known? Telepathy? If Custer expected Benteen to arrive around Reno's left flank and attack the village, he should have sent him orders to do so. At the point he sent Benteen to the left they had no clear knowledge of exactly where the village was nor how many villages there might be. The follow up messages were likewise sent before that knowledge had been attained.

Errors were indeed made by several officers and enlisted men during the battle. Some of them happened due to a lack of correct information and some due to the poor communication skills of the men involved. That isn't sinister. Just 19th Century warfare.

[mcaryf]

Hi Gumby

I am becoming more convinced than ever that Benteen's mission to the left was intended to enter the LBH valley to both block it for fleeing Indians and potentially attack the village from another direction. Benteen aborts the mission when Gibson mistakenly tells him there are no Indians in the valley (note from Gibson's much later discussions with Camp it seems he came to think he had looked in the wrong valley). It seems a real pity that Custer did not send any of his scouts that knew the terrain with Benteen.

Those that postulate it as a scout and complain that no messenger was sent to report to Custer always omit to consider that Benteen met Boston and it seems highly unlikely that he would not have given Boston information about the apparent lack of Indians in the LBH valley . Of course we now know that there were more than enough Indians so any message from Benteen saying there were none would have hardly been useful to Custer.

Regards

Mike

[Dark Cloud]

I stand corrected about Benteen asking for someone to write a letter on his behalf, albeit his bud Price. Out of curiosity, who is the author of the first paragraph whose book he liked?

I refuse to believe that Gibson, who like everyone could see the expanse of the LBH valley from the divide, would mistake the ruts and gullies of Wolf Mountain run offs for it later. There is nothing that would resemble the valley of a river whose general dimensions were known, not even close. It may have seemed so in memory later, but there's nothing on the map to suggest such a thing. Even if so, that's on Gibson, not Benteen who'd have no reason to doubt him.

[harpskiddie]

dc:

The full quote referencing the book is: "I also got the copy of Bay Window paper you sent me, (Torey's) and a nice paper 'tis too. The review of the black person's book was well, very well thought - and I liked it muchly."

From the content, it would appear that Benteen is referring to a review of the book, possibly by someone named Torey, and not to the book itself. I haven't the slightest idea what the Bay Window was - apparently a publication of some sort - who Torey was, or to whom the black person refers.

Gordie

[mcaryf]

Hi DC

I guess it has to be the South Fork of Reno Creek that Gibson thinks he looked in. Camp explains this by suggesting that the Rosebud had not amounted to much when viewed at a distance, the South Fork had Cottonwood along it and I guess Gibson had never previously seen the LBH valley

If it was LBH valley it is necessary to explain how it is that he cannot see what Custer's other scouts are reporting at this time. A lot of activity and huge clouds of dust as the pony herds are being driven in.

Regards

Mike

[George Mabry]

Benteen would not have done anything intentional to cause the destruction of Custer’s companies. He may have dawdled and indulged in Elisabeth’s “dumb insolence” but I believe Benteen was truly shocked by the turn of events. It just wasn’t possible for the Indians to defeat five companies of cavalry in detail.

Benteen, having reason to believe that the fight was underway and Custer had the upper hand, might very well have dawdled so as not to do anything to add to Custer’s glorious moment. Later that day, believing that Custer had been repulsed and driven northward, Benteen may even have allowed himself to feel a little smug but I’ve never seen anything that would lead me to believe that Benteen would withhold support from five companies in peril simply over his dislike/hatred of the commander.

Elisabeth, I think you’re on to something about Benteen’s dislike for Custer becoming greater over the years. Interesting thought.

Gumby, the reason Custer didn’t send for Benteen earlier was possibly because he thought Benteen was still in the process of checking out the upper valley. I agree with you that the theories about Benteen being expected to attack along Reno’s left are farfetched. Custer expected Benteen to come to him and Benteen would have seen it the same way. A question I've never resolved is if Benteen believed Custer had already entered the village and the fight was on, why wouldn’t he have crossed at Ford A to get to him. I think Benteen would have known the west side was relatively flat. Was taking the scenic route just a little more dumb insolence?

Leyton, I can’t see any “fatal mistake” made by Benteen unless it was not having his troops dig in on the night of the 25th. Benteen’s actions/motives, while possibly not a credit to him personally, did not cause the disaster that followed.

George

[Dark Cloud]

South Fork heads east into the other dribble that he knows flows into LBH. He would pass the junction of the South Fork and Reno, so that cannot be it. It vaguely parallels No Name to Reno Creek, which they followed. And you can see this large valley west ahead from the divide, know that is the LBH, and would not mistake the South Fork for it. I can't believe that absent Gibson being a moron.

If he saw LBH he'd be looking at greater than 90 degrees from what the other scouts were looking at, with his view north blocked by high ground between Benteen and Reno Creek, according to Godfrey. Or, maybe Benteen told the truth and headed east* despite, not because of, Gibson's report for the reasons he initially stated.

They know the Little Bighorn starts by the Bighorns, which they can see in the distance, and I doubt they thought Benteen was searching the 'upper valley.'

There is no indication Benteen dawdled. On a hot day, he arrived with his units capable of going on the offensive, the protection of the train in mind, and didn't initiate action unless he knew what he was doing and against what.

*by which, obviously, I meant north.......mumble...

[elisabeth]

DC, I don't know if this would be it, but there seem to have been two (at least) books by black writers published that year. One was A Brand Plucked from the Burning by Julia Foote: part autobiography, part religious tract, so not, I'd guess, Benteen's sort of reading. The other was The Underground Railroad by William Still, which might have been rather more to his taste.

Also that year, Frederick Douglass published a paper, rather than a book, trying to dissuade blacks from emigrating to Kansas; knowing Kansas as he did, Benteen might have been interested in that ... It's also the year that Joel Chandler Harris' The Tar-Baby was published. Not in book form, and he wasn't black, but Benteen (and others) might have been fooled by the Br'er Rabbit dialect; and it was published in a Georgia newspaper, which would have been a reason for him to pay attention.

Can find no trace of the newspaper, however ...

[Gumby]

George,
Benteen and Godfrey said they were preparing to cross the river where they viewed some of Reno's men being overrun when they were waved up to the bluffs by a Crow Scout.

[mcaryf]

Hi DC

Unfortunately I do not have detailed maps of the areas leading to LBH, I expect to see some of those in Roger Darling's book soon.

If you look at this web site:

www.mohicanpress.com/battles/ba04003.html

you do see a representation that shows Reno South Fork running parallel to LBH valley so the orientation is correct if this map is right. Also it does look from an orientation point of view that you should be able to look towards the village and pony herds from where Gibson would have been rather easier than you could look to the South of the LBH valley. Obviously we really need some information on the intervening elevations. If you draw a line from the Crow's Nest to the village then that would pass through the area where Gibson was so that would seem to suggest he ought to have seen the village if he was looking in the right valley.

Regards

Mike

[Dark Cloud]

Mcaryf,

No, still can't believe it. South Fork is a piddle stream, they had a pretty good idea what the LBH was like, the distance was only half of what they could see from the divide to the open valley that held the LBH, he'd PASS the junction of the south fork with Reno Creek, Custer's trail continued west along Reno which they knew was NOT the LBH. Godfrey says that very soon after leaving the main column, their vision to the north was blocked, and it is about ten miles to the village from the map's alleged assignation of Gibson's furthest point.

[dcary]

I’ve never seen where Benteen’s supposed ‘dawdle’ occurs.

Reno is in combat when Martini leaves to go to Benteen with the famous note. After
getting it, Benteen waters horses – it’s 95-100 degrees, they evidently haven’t had a
drink in 19 hours or so, and are maybe needed for combat ahead, so this surely this
isn’t a bad decision.

Benteen joins Reno after the rout has developed.

I have seen estimates from 15-45 minutes for Reno’s firing line to stay in deployment.

Whatever the actual time is, in that time Martin rides a wounded horse to Benteen, and
Benteen waters and comes back. If it took Martin only ten minutes to reach Benteen, it
had to take ten to come back and maybe more. That leaves 25 for watering, if that ride
can be made in that time.

Godfrey said the country they went through on the scout was rough. So does Edgerly.
Godfrey says some horses were greatly jaded and quite slow. Edgerly says that the firing
That was heard from Reno hill (Custer’s wing) lasted 20 minutes at the most.
Others say more.

Where in this is the dawdle? I can see maybe a 10-minute faster arrival at Reno hill. I don’t
see how that would have changed anything except, maybe, Reno’s battle.

[mcaryf]

Hi Dcary

I agree with you about Benteen not dawdling but not about Benteen watering after Martini arrives. He does that before at the Morass.

Hi Darkcloud

I have now seen a copy of Roger Darling's book. If you look at the location of the Crow's Nest as compared with where Darling imagines Gibson was then it is very hard to understand how Gibson could not see the pony herds if not the village itself. The answer has to be that Gibson was not looking from that point and was in fact looking in the wrong valley as he himself concluded after he had studied maps of the area that he had not seen before.

Regards

Mike

[Dark Cloud]

I haven't read Darling or seen his maps, but I've been to the area. Any 'valley' he thought was the LBH provided a junction with Reno Creek which he would later pass. It wouldn't be difficult to follow the runoff streambed to the north visually wherever he was, whatever he could/couldn't see of the village/herd. And no, he'd be looking south and west, not north, and Reno Hill and Weir would probably block a view of the village at his elevation far lower than the Crow's Nest peak.

Don't buy it at all, but I'll get Darling somehow.