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Post by mcaryf on Jul 13, 2006 0:59:37 GMT -6
Could I rephrase my question at the start of this thread and ask:
What was Custer's likely knowledge when he ordered Reno to charge, wherever that order occurred?
Varnum reported at RCOI that he had already seen the village and immense numbers of Indians from the bluffs before Reno was ordered to charge. Can we assume that messengers to this effect would have come to Custer? Was the sight of the village that Custer himself had from the bluffs the first he really knew of it as I guess his apologists would prefer. It is fairly clear that Girard wanted to change Custer's mind about the Reno charge so he must have thought that Custer's order was based on his own misapprehension about the Indian's running.
So to reiterate - what is it thought that Custer knew about the village when he ordered the charge?
Regards
Mike
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Post by PhillyBlair on Jul 13, 2006 8:01:39 GMT -6
Mike, I think your earlier quotes from the RCOI as well as every testimony from the key players from the time of the order to charge are consistent. All recollections from the witnesses use the singular "village." All recollections also indicate that Custer thought the occupants of the singular village to be "running away." Reno was certain enough of Custer's perspective that he sent word back to him that the village was NOT running away. Custer then makes two decisions that indicate his knowledge of Reno's message and his belief that there is a single village: First, he heads for the other end of the village to either attack from the rear or gather hostages, or both. This action would not have been taken if he suspected a series of villages spread for miles along the river. Second, he sends for Benteen who will no longer be needed to gather in any fleeing Indians because the village is singular, and is fighting.
Custer must have been ecstatic, as Martin reports, when he reached the other end of the village and saw very few signs of resistance. His plan must have seemed masterful to him for a brief few moments.
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Post by George Mabry on Jul 13, 2006 14:40:59 GMT -6
By the time Custer ordered Reno to charge he was within a mile of the ford and was in possession of much more solid information than he was just a few miles farther back at the lone tepee. He knew the location of the village and he knew it was on the move. He still didn't know the extent of the village but he did know where it was located.
He also had to have known the size of the village. He had examined previous camp sites, followed their trails, listened to his scouts opinions, and even made a fairly accurate guess as to the number of warriors. This was going to be one big village or possibly a series of villages extending northward from Ford A.
In all likelyhood Custer had seen Indians on the river's eastern bluffs. Several in his command did see these indians so it is likely that Custer saw them too.
So much for what Custer knew. What he didn't know or have was a tactical knowledge of the terrain in which he was about to fight and the mood, intentions, and capabilities of the Indians. Plus he didn't know the direction of flight. He knew the Indians were farther downstream and running but were they running north, west, east, or all of the above?
Custer had two good reasons to separate from Reno with the first being what I just mentioned. If the Indians were trying to escape to the east, he needed to cut them off. Also, at least 60-70 mounted Indians were seen on the eastern bluffs so he needed to check that out. The second reason is just plain good chase tactics . You've all watched nature shows on TV where a pack of wolves are chasing a herd of whatever. One group of wolves is behind the herd pushing and the other group follows the herd on its flank. Even a well coordinated police chases (few as they may be) use this tactic. So at this point I'm sure Custer feels like he is in the driver's seat.
George
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Post by weir on Jul 14, 2006 16:02:43 GMT -6
As we noticed in another post months ago, Custer's orders, according to Reno's report of 1876, never indicated "a village".
The original orders were "cross the river and charge and you'll be supported by the whole outfit. (see Fox, p. 375 note 67)
Why would Custer talk about "a village" while he was certainly thinking, according to the previous events he witnessed, that the village was moving and its inhabitants fleeing ?
A moving village is not a village anymore. Which "village" was Reno to charge ? None.
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Post by George Mabry on Jul 15, 2006 8:56:10 GMT -6
I wouldn't haggle about whether the word "village" was ever used; however, I believe Custer expected to find a village. Custer had info that the village was on the move which could also be interpreted as meaning "breaking-up" It takes so time for a large village to get on the trail. Custer expected to find a stationary village or at the very least, a large part of it still in place. That was his whole purpose in moving as fast as he did.
George
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Post by AZ Ranger on Jul 15, 2006 9:33:36 GMT -6
West Page 376 also states "On the other hand, Reno talked about his orders more than once during his 1879 inquiry. Another time he included reference to to the village:"chargethe village afterwords"
AZ Ranger
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Post by weir on Jul 15, 2006 14:26:40 GMT -6
West Page 376 also states "On the other hand, Reno talked about his orders more than once during his 1879 inquiry. Another time he included reference to to the village:"charge the village afterwords" AZ Ranger True. But in 1879 Reno was investigated. And we all know he lied more than once. Was he unable to read his own report and tell the RCOI about it ?
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Post by AZ Ranger on Jul 15, 2006 14:36:55 GMT -6
Or did he know the original was not true and included the village to be truthful?
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Post by weir on Jul 15, 2006 14:41:42 GMT -6
According to Fox, in orders each word counts. Especially the objective. To add an objective is like changing orders.
Reno was aware of that. Remember also Reno had just to read his own report during the investigation. Why this "village" which was not included before ?
In the LBH case, especially coming from Reno and Benteen, it sounds suspicious.
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Post by weir on Jul 15, 2006 14:56:21 GMT -6
In Sklenar's book, the charge of Reno in the valley is depicted with many testimonies coming from officers and privates. Except Reno himself, nobody argues that a counter-attack of Indians is why Reno stopped his charge.
On the contrary, privates say the soldiers stopped in the woods near the angle of the river, and went forward about 200 yards in line before opening fire.
On my point of view, it seems Custer ordered Reno to stop the fleeing village and to attract the warriors in the south. When Reno realized the village was still standing, he obeyed orders including this new parameter.
I fear to say I don't see Reno making a smart decision on June 25 nor taking any initiative while he was charging the valley. This thought makes me think Custer had planned Reno's moves.
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Post by George Mabry on Jul 15, 2006 20:43:17 GMT -6
When, exactly, did Custer become aware of the Lone Tepee group? Wouldn't that area where the LT was located be visible from the Crows Nest? The first mentioning of the LT I can remember was went they rode upon it. Did they not know it was there when they left the divide?
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Post by AZ Ranger on Jul 16, 2006 8:20:01 GMT -6
Reno also could have been making a fair assessment of the ability of his troopers to charge into greater numbers of warriors standing to to fight rather than fleeing.
AZ Ranger
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Post by blaque on Jul 17, 2006 7:04:21 GMT -6
Az, that’s somewhat unlikely. It seems there were no warriors ‘standing to’ while Reno was charging. They were circling and moving away, keeping their distance from the charging cavalry. According to Lt. Varnum the Indians had been running before them for over one mile when suddenly they turned and advanced upon them. The warriors had already made several feints before, but this time they did not flinch and kept going. He glanced backwards, and at once understood the cause for this change: the battalion was halted, and the men were forming a skirmish line on foot. As West points out, may be Reno was just obeying Custer’s orders; or perhaps he distrusted the easiness with which he was approaching the village, and fearing a trap took a defensive stance. May be it was a good decision, but he did not take it at the sight of a wall of warriors standing fast.
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Post by elisabeth on Jul 17, 2006 7:11:29 GMT -6
Reno claimed, didn't he, that he scented an ambush; that there was a ravine or coulee ahead of them which he suspected he was being led towards, and that it proved to be full of warriors lying in wait -- "the very ground seemed to grow Indians". Whether we should believe him on that or not, I don't know ...
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Post by blaque on Jul 17, 2006 8:20:56 GMT -6
Varnum was in advance with the scouts and better positioned than Reno to judge upon the ground in front of the charge. He was questioned about it at the RCI: Q: Describe the nature of the ground in the immediate front of Major Reno’s command when it was halted and deployed as skirmishers. A: It was open prairie. I learned after that there were ravines beyond, but as far as I saw then it was open, the same as the bottom we had passed over.
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