|
Post by mcaryf on Jul 9, 2006 2:35:22 GMT -6
Those with an anti-Reno attitude make something of the fact that he did not charge into the village as per his orders.
Whilst there is some question about whether the order did actually say charge the village and in any event Reno was quite justified in not doing so, I would like to raise another doubt about this order namely what Custer might have actually intended by the word "village".
Consider the following section of Devern's evidence at RCOI when asked what order Reno received:
Devern: The order was - "Girard comes back and reports the Indian village three miles ahead and moving. The General directs you to take your 3 companies and drive everything before you." Those I beleive were the exact words.
Reno himself in his official report written soon after the event reports the orders as follows:
Lt Cook, Adjustant, came to me and said the village was only two miles ahead and running away; to move forward at as rapid a gait as prudent and charge afterwards and that the whole outfit would support me.
Whilst there are some minor differences in detail the two reports of this conversation between the Adjutant and Reno are broadly consistent. The key point is that it took place at or about the location known as Lone Tepee. Now the Lone Tepee was actually one or possibly more tepees left standing in an otherwise hastily abandonned village site. What Girard had claimed he saw was some Indians running away from this site.
Thus is it not probable that the order referred to the Indians from this village seen running by Girard and certainly not the main village which we now know was in the LBH valley nearly double the "2 or 3 miles" away and which Custer still was not convinced existed and still had not seen?
Regards
Mike
|
|
|
Post by historynut1876 on Jul 9, 2006 6:05:46 GMT -6
mcaryf -
This is a good thought. It makes more sense that Reno was sent to charge a fleeing village than a standing village. Unless Custer thought the standing village was a fraction of what it turned out to be.
Custer's sending Benteen off on a scout when in such close proximity (in my opinion) to the village speaks volumes. It endangered Benteen in particular who didn't have enough men to stand off the 1000-1500 warriors (if he ran into them) that Custer estimated they were after. Likewise, sending Reno to attack such a force makes no sense, especially in the light that it took Custer too long to position himself for the intended support. It would appear that Custer misjudged the size of the village and/or the fact that they were all within close supporting distance (unlike the Washita).
Even if such a number of warriors were on the run, Custer must have known there would be a sizeable rearguard to offer more than enough of a challenge to Reno.
In a way, it only makes sense that Custer thought Reno was charging a much smaller village, fleeing or not. If this is true, then he totally and inexplicably ignored his scouts.
|
|
|
Post by George Mabry on Jul 9, 2006 7:38:08 GMT -6
Mike, this is one of the points that Sklenar makes in his book "To Hell With Honor". Skelnar believes that Reno was sent after the small village that had just fled the Lone Tepee area. From where Gerard was located when he reported the indians fleeing, he could not see the main village on the west side of the LBH. The only "village" within his view would have been the Lone Tepee band.
|
|
|
Post by PhillyBlair on Jul 9, 2006 7:49:38 GMT -6
mcaryf,
You bring up a great point that I have often thought is key to understanding Custer's "strategy" (although some may deny he had one). The orders received by Reno are the key. Note the detail in the orders (paraphrasing) -- three miles and "moving" -- two miles and "running away". Clearly, Custer was no longer in doubt as to the existence of Indians in the very near proximity. Add to this the fact that between these two messengers Custer likely turned away from the river and into the hills to follow a band of roughly 60 warriors who some say played a part in the later developments of his portion of the battle. From Custer's perspective Indians had been spotted, dust was seen on the horizon (which later proved to be a combination of fleeing families AND circling warriors preparing to defend their homes), and every indication was that this was business as usual -- the Indians were scattering or running away.
All of this evidence brings me to the only point in which I disagree with you. I don't think Custer was in any doubt, at this juncture, that there was a village (or series of villages) nearby. In fact, I don't think he had any doubt of how close the village(s) was/were when he divided the regiments. He had already changed his thinking from a dawn attack on the 26th to a speedy advance and attack that very day. His concern was not the existence of Indians, but whether or not he could round them up before they scattered. That said, I'm not sure Custer cared what Reno was charging, just so he was charging and driving what, to him, was a fleeing band of Indians.
Just my thoughts. Thanks for bringing up this subject. It's too often overlooked.
|
|
|
Post by George Mabry on Jul 9, 2006 7:56:46 GMT -6
Another question comes to mind if you consider that Custer ordered Reno to charge the fleeing LT band. How did Custer know that Reno would turn to the north after crossing the LBH? He could have just as easily turned south if parts of the village were strung out down that section of the river. Do you think that was why he sent Cooke to Ford A? To determine which direction Reno was going to take?
|
|
|
Post by Dark Cloud on Jul 9, 2006 9:05:49 GMT -6
I'd like to point out some issues here. The differences between Reno's report and Devern's testimony are not minor. An error of 33% in estimated mileage is not to be taken lightly when being told to attack.
Second, Gray eliminated at the Lone Tipi and placed the division of command at the flats, so Reno got his orders there. Page 275 and environs, Custer's Last Campaign. Girard also said that his scouts on the bluffs reported the Sioux were coming up the valley to meet Reno and Reno was informed at the crossing, and Keogh took this back to Custer.
Third, the Sans Arc coagulation of lodges to mourn their Rosebud dead at the lone tipi was maybe ten total, if that, so far below consideration it barely is worthy of the term "village," and would have been a major error of Custer's if this was his intent. This is what I mean when the term "village" is used for absurdly different numbers of lodges.
From this, we know that Custer would have been informed that the Indians were NOT fleeing but attacking at the time he himself headed north, perhaps hoping they were as ignorant of his strength as he was of theirs. This comforting conceit would not have survived long, till he got to Sharpshooter or Weir and saw the reality.
At that point he knows Reno HAS to receive support or retire. And Custer is aware of his horses' needs, telling Reno to move as prudence allows before attacking, which Reno did after watering, and Custer has no known way to help at this point. For Custer to envision Benteen, who has seen no water, to somehow gallop to him and arrive with horses able to weather a fight in heat is to think Custer a moron of inexperience. Of course he'd expect Benteen to water meaningfully. Benteen doesn't know what water he's to see and takes the first opportunity at the morass. For Custer to think the pack mules are going to survive a rush without watering isn't likely either, and to think Benteen WITH the train are going to appear soon would not speak well of the Boy General's smarts.
|
|
|
Post by mcaryf on Jul 9, 2006 11:35:31 GMT -6
Hi DC
I do not have Gray's book so do not know how he determined where the division of command took place. All I can say is that every scrap of evidence at the RCOI says it happened at or near the Lone Tepee.
Lt Wallace says the order stated the Indians are two and a half miles ahead he also says the order was given “soon after passing the Lone Tepee” He then describes a ride of some distance alongside the tributary of the LBH and then crossing the tributary and then a ride of a few hundred yards further before they came to the ford.
De Rudio stated that Reno was sent ahead after the Lone Tepee and further stated:
“General Custer diverged his command to the right after we passed that village. That was 4 or 5 miles from the ford.”
Girard was asked where Reno got his orders and stated it was 25 or 30 yards from the Lone Tepee although he also estimated the distance from the Lone Tepee to the river as just over a mile. It is in fact about 4 miles. I guess Girard might be better able to estimate a distance of 25 to 30 yards rather than one of 4 miles!
Luther Hare at RCOI states that Reno was ordered ahead by Custer about 4 or 5 miles from the ford and within 100 yards of the Lone Tepee.
Devern confirmed that the order was given at the Lone Tepee.
As you seem to have access to Gray can you explain how he determines that all these witnesses were wrong?
Regards
Mike
|
|
|
Post by Dark Cloud on Jul 9, 2006 12:08:09 GMT -6
Sure. On page 257, Gray timed out everything Gerard (his spelling) was claimed to have done at the Lone Tipi, and it was not possible for him to have left Custer, climbed some bluff or other with a view to what is claimed, and return to Custer with the info. It was at the flats and it corresponds to other accounts. There are hugely varying accounts about the day to the LBH itself because, I'd think, exhaustion, heat, and soon replaced with trauma melded events together in memory. Nothing suspcious, and Gray's logic is strong and doesn't violate anything. Further, Gray was no fan of Reno or Benteen.
In any case, there is arguably general agreement how far from the river Reno got his orders and Indians were seen fleeing, and it corresponds to the flats which, in any case, is where the two commands parted.
Really, that book of Gray's - not a page turner - is essential. It provides the structure to argue with him or anyone, and as was said, you HAVE to deal with Gray, right or wrong.
|
|
|
Post by mcaryf on Jul 10, 2006 3:14:13 GMT -6
I guess I will have to get Gray's book but since I have acquired 5 LBH books in as many weeks I might have to wait for a copy to appear on E-Bay!
I would be interested to know how he gets round the almost unanimous testimony that the order was given specifically at Lone Tepee or in some cases beside an Indian Lodge. Is there a suggestion that there was more than one lodge some distance apart?
Regards
Mike
|
|
|
Post by George Mabry on Jul 10, 2006 4:11:54 GMT -6
On page 269 in Gray's book, Gray has a map and places the high bluff that Gerard used to "sight the village" as directly above lone tepee, not further down in the flats. I have a good topo map of that area and it shows what could be several small hillocks that Gerard might have used.
George
|
|
|
Post by blaque on Jul 10, 2006 4:23:55 GMT -6
This comes from a paper by V. G. Smalley included in the published acts of the 12th CBHMA Symposium (1998), entitled ‘The Lone Tepees along Reno Creek’. He passes in review no less than 20 different statements as to the sighting of the tepee, and then summarizes as follows: We see two distinct groups of tepee sightings in Figure 1. One tepee stood roughly 4 1/2 miles from the river, and was torched by Custer’s men. It probably contained the body of a single Sioux warrior and was still burning as Benteen’s battalion passed by roughly an hour later. For convenience, we may refer to it as the ‘eastern lone tepee’. Figure 1 shows that Reno’s order was given to attack the village when he was about 1 1/2 miles from the river and near at least three tepees. The Cheyennes claimed there were two Cheyenne lodges […] The third tepee contained multiple dead bodies. Because they were separated from each other, any one of these may have been called ‘the lone tepee’ by the survivors. For convenience, we will refer to one of the three as the ‘western lone tepee’. This would explain the many contradictory statements about the actual distance between the tepee and the LBH. Note also that the lay out of the Reno creek village would fit the usual pattern, with Cheyennes at the lower end.
|
|
|
Post by George Mabry on Jul 10, 2006 5:16:09 GMT -6
Excuse me. I meant Herendeen not Gerard. Another quote from Gray, "Varnum, Curley, and Herendeen thus agree that before Custer arrived, and from a high bluff opposite the lone tepee, they saw many Sioux, 5 miles distant, apparently ready to run away." page 255. This sighting could only have been the LT band.
Gray clearly states that the "lead out" order to Reno was given at the lone tepee. Mike, I think some of the confusions comes from believing that the "lead out" order was a "charge" order.
Gerard didn't help things with his RCOI testimony in which he says that he came down from a bluff and told Custer "Here are your Indians running like devils," and places that sighting by distance as having occurred in the flats but implies that it was near the lone tepee. According to Gerard, that was when Custer ordered Reno to charge.
There were apparently two sighting of Indians on the fly. One from a bluff near the lone tepee and another from a bluff near the flats. Various accounts say that after receiving the news of Indians on the run, Custer ordered Reno to charge. Since Custer had two separate sightings of Indians on the run at which did he order Reno to charge? Gray makes a good case is saying it was at the later: the sighting at or near the flats.
George
|
|
|
Post by mcaryf on Jul 10, 2006 6:56:47 GMT -6
Thanks for all for the helpful comments.
The original post I made was querying whether Reno was ordered to charge after the LT band or whether his order really was to charge the main village. I am not sure that I now know the answer to this. The original idea I had was that some Indians were spotted moving away from the area of the first LT and that Custer had wanted the scouts to pursue these. The scouts refused so Custer instead ordered Reno to charge after them.
From the various comments it seems there might be a distinction between Reno taking the lead after the scouts refused and Reno being ordered to charge. I have to say I do not see much documentary evidence for this distinction as pretty well all the accounts seem to suggest that Reno was immediately asked to pursue and then charge. There is no suggestion of two lots of orders to Reno in his own report and I have yet to find any others. However, I do see quite a lot of variation in terms of the distances between the LT and the LBH.
What eye witness evidence is there for there being two sets of orders for Reno?
Regards
Mike
|
|
|
Post by Dark Cloud on Jul 10, 2006 8:06:26 GMT -6
Stewart made a point in his book that, from all the testimony about Reno's orders "heard" by various people, it's so wonder the Major could move given the congestion about him. None of the accounts agree, either, of course. A good way to judge them might be: if someone says "Reno was told" or the phrase is left in some passive verbal construct, it's an indication the speaker wasn't there but repeating what he later had heard. If someone says "Custer told..." or "the message was" it may suggest presence. But who knows.....
Herendeen and Girard are given high marks by Custerphiles because they dis Reno, but few mention their tales aren't in agreement in some areas and Herendeen thought the Sioux commanders directed units by use of colored lances.
There would be small point in ordering Reno to charge a small group of Indians running away already well ahead if still far from the area of the expected village, and in any case Custer and Reno were parallel to each other on the Creek till the flats when they parted ways, with Custer not showing distress Reno wasn't charging someone as ordered in the interim.
Sklenar made the only logical explanation for Benteen's scout in such bulk by saying Custer intended to capture the Sans Arc mourning village for hostages, etc. etc. His book is a bitter theory without evidence and this didn't really fly outside the lamest Custerphiles. But Benteen's scout still makes small sense, and suggests to me a disorganized commander, which is given heft by the subsequent micromanagement.
|
|
|
Post by crzhrs on Jul 10, 2006 8:58:02 GMT -6
Benteen's scout has always caused me problems: Why send 3 full companies "somewhere" looking for Indians when the Crow led by white scouts would have been far more efficient. They knew the area (i.e., likely camping spots & escape routes) and would have been quicker.
Benteen was sent with NO scouts and NO medical personnel leading one to assume that Custer did not expect Benteen to find anything . . . and this was BEFORE the lone tepee site when Custer further divides his command. And why didn't Custer send a message to Benteen that Indians had been spotted running and he was dividing the command with Reno to attack the village?
Benteen is left in the dark (if we are to believe his testimony) and off on a wild goose chase while Custer and Reno head off on separate missions attacking the largest village even known on the Plains with a paltry numbers of soldiers.
And Custer doesn't recall Benteen till much later in the afternoon when by then Reno was fully engaged and Custer was supposedly ready to hit a "sleeping" village . . . by then Reno was routed and Custer was in his death throes.
|
|