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Post by shatonska on Feb 18, 2006 15:51:07 GMT -6
sadly i don't know this theory , for what i have understood it seems interesting, could you please explain it clearly from the beginning ( movements on keogh on battle ridge ) ?
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Post by elisabeth on Feb 19, 2006 5:40:32 GMT -6
I'll let Gumby/Bob explain it properly -- but the essence of it is that Keogh's battalion wasn't just parked up on Battle Ridge waiting for something to happen. Instead, it was in action from the start, countering the threat from the east from the group of warriors Kanipe had pointed out earlier. The argument is that Custer couldn't risk having them at his rear, so sent Keogh into action against them. Makes sense!
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Post by shatonska on Feb 19, 2006 7:58:44 GMT -6
hypotetically it could make sense , but Woolf Thoot said differently , follow his accounts in John stands in timber or lakota noon , after the skirmish on luce-nye ridges they remained away from the companies until the actions in the last stand hill area , i think that each soldier action has to be supported by at least an indian account but the usual considered Keogh action is strange , i think Keogh or Custer though that warriors could cut the defensive position along the ridge infiltrating through ravines from the west , so Keogh posioned soldiers east of the crest under the small repair of the ridge but warriors came along deep coulee fighting from the rear , CH WB charge cut soldier's position almost at the same time of Cahloun's end , the rest was a route , Keogh was not in reserve but was in a defensive position facing west but were surprised by oglala henry fire from the east and faced two of the best and more skillfull warriors of all times , they dared to charge and gave courage to tens of others
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Gumby
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Post by Gumby on Feb 19, 2006 12:20:21 GMT -6
Shat, My theories on Keogh's actions in MTC are supported by Indian accounts. My theory on Keogh's actions after depend on interpretation. Several Indian accounts speak of the soldiers of Custer's command making only one charge. The problem is we always wrongly assume that all of the Indians saw the same charge. In most cases the warriors saw only small parts of the battle themselves, the parts they participated in. Many of the Indian accounts state that the Custer bttns fought a running fight the whole way and died moving from MTC to Finley, from Finley to Calhoun Hill, and from there down into the Keogh depression area on the way to LSH. Then ran from LSH to Deep Ravine. We now know that is not accurate.
The fight lasted longer (not a great deal) and there was much more movement by the Yates bttn. The Calhoun skirmish line lasted longer than just a few minutes. We know from Indian accounts that warriors moved around Calhoun's men and took up positions overlooking the depression where Keogh ended up. They talked about harrassing Calhoun's horse holders which he placed in Horse Holders' Ravine, which was the one right next to where keogh was found, not the coulee behind Calhoun Ridge. How could they have moved down into that depression to attack Calhoun's horse holders as they said if Keogh was already down there? The answer is they couldn't have. There were not enough warriors there at that time. The solution that explains their accounts is simple, Keogh wasn't in reserve in the depression. He was in reserve on the west side of Battle Ridge (running from LSH to Calhoun Hill), which made just as good a reserve position if not better because Keogh could see more.
When the warriors crawled down into the ditch-like ravines at the bottom of the ravine that connect to Horse Holders' Ravine and began harrassing the horses and their holders, Keogh had to run them out of the depression. My theory is that Keogh was wounded during the movement into the depression, which stopped him from continuing his attack to move the warriors off the eastern ridgeline (the next logical move according to the tactics of the day). How many warriors would have seen Keogh's charge down into the depression? Only the ones in the depression or on that ridgeline. Certainly not the ones fighting Companies L & C from Deep Coulee and MTC area. The terrain blocks their view. The same goes for the warriors who were busy fighting Yates' bttn, who had gone well past LSH.
Considering the number of warriors that could have been or were in the fight, we have very few Indian accounts of the battle by comparison. The same goes for soldier accounts, over three hundred soldiers survived the battle yet how many accounts do we have? Just because we don't have an account to support certain actions by soldiers and warriors doesn't mean the actions didn't happen. None of the Indian accounts mention any of Custer's bttns getting across the ford and into the village, yet how do we explain the heads of several being found in cooking pots and other locations in the village. We know some of Reno's men's horses carried them into the village to their deaths. But there were more heads than that found. The Indian accounts don't mention how the heads got there yet they were there. Sometimes you have to use the evidence, with or without supporting Indian accounts. That is what makes this so much fun. We are trying to solve a mystery without evidence that has been removed from the scene (often without documentation), Indian accounts that are sketchy at best, and soldier accounts that are sketchy. This leaves us with theories.
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Post by shatonska on Feb 19, 2006 14:03:46 GMT -6
Gumby i was following Elisabeth explanation which is very different from what you say above , she said Keogh fought east against woolf thoot band ( i replyed that woolfthoot said nothing of this ) you now say that Keogh positioned west of the ridge , this makes much more sense and i agree on the following theory you speak off , but i think that it wasn't a reserve position but a defensive position against warriors crossing the river and infiltrating in the ravines west of the ridge , maybe company c soldiers were sent to lower pression on finley ridge ( or probably soldiers were left there while retreating form the ford area) but i think that Keogh positioned east not west of the ridgeline and facing west , this because of the cover of the ridge ( if you can have a little cover from the ridgeline it is stupid to stay west of it in the open )and because warriors infiltrating east along deep coulee sent fire against keogh company ( and against soldiers holding horses in the ravine ) White Bull saw these three groups of troups ( cahloun , horse holders and keogh ) if Keogh was positioned west of the ridge WB maybe could not see him and surely if keogh then moved east of the ridge to repulse these warriors we would have had some accounts of this move just my idea but to me it seems more logical
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Gumby
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Post by Gumby on Feb 19, 2006 17:04:56 GMT -6
The only problem is that the warriors who came up Deep Ravine did so after the warriors on the eastern ridgeline were harrassing the horse holders in the depression. The threat from the river came during the collapse of C & L. Keogh would not have sat behind Battle Ridge (east) to fight the warriors coming up Deep Ravine from the river because it would mean that he knowingly allowed them to get behind Company C on Greasy Grass and Calhoun Ridges. The only place he could have successfully repulsed them and protected C's flank would have been down by the river itself. The only thing that makes sense is that he never saw them coming.
The tactics of the day would have been to keep at least one company in reserve initially. The logical choices for that location would have been either east or west of Battle Ridge. Obviously, because of their locations on the field, Co. I was in reserve, possibly C as well initially. C would have had to move to Calhoun Ridge to protect Calhoun's flank from the warriors who were crawling along Calhoun Ridge to flank Co. L. This left Keogh's Company. Some of the warriors moving up Deep Coulee passed by Calhoun and took up positions on the ridge to the east, where they found Calhoun's horse holders an easy target. Keogh was then forced to use his remaining company, I, to repulse those warriors. My theory is that he was wounded in doing so, keeping him from completing his movement which would have been to move onto the eastern ridgeline himself. Company C meanwhile has collapsed and the survivors run through Calhoun's line and down into the depression with Keogh, followed by a great deal of warriors, who flank Calhoun as well. Company L panics as well and also retreats north. Some run into the depression and some try to run across Battle Ridge. This is what was referred to as the buffalo hunt. Warriors are now streaming up from the river and over Calhoun Hill. There are also warriors on the eastern ridgeline. This is where Crazy Horse makes his bravery run, which causes many of the soldiers to fire at him, emptying their rifles. The other warriors then charge down on the soldiers who have no time to reload. They must then pull their pistols or run. The only place to run is north. Some try and some stand and fight. Custer by this time is returning to LSH just as the massacre is finishing. Some of the retreating men from Keogh's bttn make it to the shortlived safety of Yates' bttn.
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Post by El Crab on Feb 20, 2006 18:00:29 GMT -6
Where does the cutting of the ridge fit in to this scenario? White Bull and Crazy Horse et al were east of Battle Ridge and engaged in some bravery runs.
or do you think they were west of Battle Ridge when they cut the ridge?
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Gumby
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Post by Gumby on Feb 20, 2006 20:18:36 GMT -6
They were east of Battle Ridge.
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