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Post by Yan Taylor on May 22, 2013 3:49:06 GMT -6
Good morning Richard; I seen some reference to the rout Custer may have took if he went to Ford D, and some of it may have took him out of sight of the village, he may have gone east behind LSH and Cemetery area thus masking his movement to anyone in the village, one the way back though Custer may have felt no need to mask his movements and this is when he views the Warriors moving to his right, and it could be the reason for E Company’s separation from both the HQ & F Company, they formed a skirmish line to pin down these Indians.
I also think that sods law come into play here, the simultaneous attacks on both Keogh and Custer were just by chance and feature no attack plan.
DC, you are right by saying that there was a lot of Brass found on LSH, but any RHQ would contain at least a couple of Officers, and being the RHQ it would not ride around a battle zone without some sort of escort, the escort in this instance could have been F Company, so it the RHQ + escort stopped on LSH then the amount of Officers in the area would be above average.
HQ Group; Lt. Col G Custer (Regimental Commander) Lt. W Cook (Adjutant) Lt. G Lord (Surgeon) Capt. T Custer (attached to HQ and maybe Custer’s Aide de camp) 1st Lt. A Smith (may have been detached from E Company because of wounds) F Company (may have rode in tandem with the HQ) Capt. G Yates (F Company Commander) 2nd L.t W Reily (F Company 2nd/Co)
The inclusion of both TWC and Smith would be unusual in normal circumstances, but the reason why these two Officer were not found with their respected Companies could be because they were attached to the RHQ, TWC as Custer Aide de camp and Smith because of wounds, and any wounded Officer would be treated by the Regimental Surgeon attached to the RHQ.
Ian.
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Post by wild on May 22, 2013 5:20:05 GMT -6
Hello Ian this is when he views the Warriors moving to his right, and it could be the reason for E Company’s separation from both the HQ & F Company, they formed a skirmish line to pin down these Indians.I mentioned the jumble of horses and men on LSH.This is consistant with a sudden no time to respond collision of forces.It even suggests to use a term from a recent debate "the Indians had gotten under the guns".They had closed to where the carbine was useless and the troopers were using their pistols. You did a piece on cavalry tactics a few posts back mentioning how broken troops were cavalry fodder.I would suggest that the LSH jumble was just that;broken troops.
I also think that sods law come into play here, the simultaneous attacks on both Keogh and Custer were just by chance and feature no attack plan. In the old silent movies there was always a scene where the hero was tied to the tracks with the steam loco bearing down on him.There was no possibility of him escaping.And then on the screen would appear the immortal words WITH ONE BOUND THE HERO WAS FREE. Applying "sods law" or suggesting" blunder" or a combination of both is of the same genre.It takes the discussion out of the strictures of military reality. I'll borrow a phrase from one of our friends [was it mac]who posted that "where there was no evidence we should give priority to military logic." Best Wishes
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Post by Yan Taylor on May 22, 2013 5:45:16 GMT -6
Richard, E Company may have been hit whist in the process of forming some sort of defence, if Custer knew he had to stop any advance from this area he would have had to attempt some sort of manoeuvre, and I do think that we are dealing with two separate incidents here, Keogh and Custer and I think that both got into trouble at virtually the same time, and if you cannot out run your foe then better try an alternative and the only one left to them would defend, that’s the only military logic I can think of.
But in this jumble of men and horses there was hardly anyone from E Company, so this Company was not attached to the HQ and F Company at this point, why it was detached is the million pound (or euro’s in your case now that you don’t have the punt) question, so they may have been ordered to engage the enemy and got caught in a similar fashion to C Company.
Sods Law means bad fortune and the bad fortune in this scenario is that the Indians attack both wings at the same time or around the same time; otherwise the two wings could have re-united.
Sods law and Murphy’s Law are similar in a way that ‘’whatever can go wrong, will go wrong’’ or put in mildly ‘’you unlucky sod’’ seems like Custer’s luck had come to an end.
Ian.
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Post by fred on May 22, 2013 6:16:08 GMT -6
Ford D has Custer parading along the LBH for 1 and 3/4 hours. Now you are an expert on "times," too, eh, wild? Where did you come up with this number? From "keogh"? You are off by more than an hour. Go back to "Alice in Wonderland"; it suits your knowledge and understanding quite a bit better than this topic. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by fred on May 22, 2013 6:43:43 GMT -6
DC,
Weir may have been pointing out "soldiers"-- which I do not recall Edgerly claiming-- but we do not even know the context: dust, perception, smoke, hope, belief, disbelief. French did the same thing in the valley fight before being corrected by his first sergeant, yet we attach no importance to that. And while Antelope is a highly believable source, you seem more inclined to accept that Indian's account than the accounts of Indians who actually saw troops at a "distant" ford. You ignore the placement of Kellogg's body; you ignore period artifacts, both Indian and government, found on privately-owned property, off the battlefield; and you ignore so-called tribal history, all for the sake of some theory.
You are the ultimate intellect on these boards, the ultimate pragmatist, yet you reach for unsupportable theory based on grabbing obscure accounts and reminiscences occurring one and two days after the fact. I cannot believe you put stock in some comment supposedly made by Tom Weir, peering three miles away into a smoke- and dust-choked atmosphere. These are arguments you use to support ideas I agree with, but you shunt them aside to support this theory, eschewing viable alternatives.
Idiots like "wild" and "keogh" throw aside as lies and incompetence accounts that go against their ludicrous ideas, distorting things to fit inane theories and pretending to be people they are not, and while you are far removed from those fools, you are trying to build a platform using willow twigs rather than steel beams.
Pardon the comparison... it really doesn't fit and I apologize ahead of time.
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by Dark Cloud on May 22, 2013 6:51:51 GMT -6
Again:
There is nothing in the location of bodies that conflicts whatever with my scenario. Despite all the fussy precision, we have no clue what companies went where when.
What I 'feel' has to do with more momentum, about which AZ might agree or not. If Custer was wounded, and either not ceding control OR just kept moving by handlers, I would agree that heading south would be smart to rejoin with the regiment. If, though, that was the direction from which the fire came, for example, as it could have been, or if they couldn't quickly change direction as a unit and had to keep going, they could well have just ended up on good speed ground heading north.
At no time do I think they envisioned a long journey north towards battle ridge, if that was even on their radar. Just get back a bit to see how bad he was hit, to get reorganized. But at every point they were still under fire and it kept going. A wounded Custer or a wounded anyone would not make it across the contested - however lightly - river into the village and once there, then what?
Yet again, yantaylor, I do not object to the brass being with Custer on LSH, I object to the brass being on the perimeter of the encircled group and not in the center directing the defense and selecting for themselves the most vulnerable spot on the field. Strikes me they were leading guys to high ground they didn't know was already surrounded and being shot off their horses as some thought. There were accounts that Vic was not with Custer but killed in stride just below the crest.
I can easily see the front group, Yates if you will, bumped north and Keogh, not clear and not yet informed, moving parallel to them to provide cover. TWC would not allow C to be unhorsed anywhere near the Indians and would keep that burden moving. I actually think ANY of his officers would do the same. Their career would not survive the revelation they allowed Custer's wounded body or corpse to fall into enemy hands. Just keep moving we'll get it together.
There were actual Indians in the cemetery area, accounting for the bullets received, and there was actual soldier equipment as detritus as well. This is the area the CD's rode into the Cheyenne village, and there are accounts of the winners walking their cavalry mounts back to camp and discarding stuff they didn't like. They had soldier weapons early and would fire at the soldiers on LSH's crest from the cemetery area.
This is the messiest and the least dramatic scenario that deprives us of discussing military matters in military terms because it was a rout of increasing hysteria and not a last stand, the proactive choice tradition demands. There is nothing that conflicts with it. Imagining the last minutes of Keogh and Harrington and what they were thinking is really just Fan Fiction. We have no idea, but I'd think the simplest conclusions drawn from the bodies and supported by the opinion of Benteen and others were who were experienced and there should elbow aside the more dramatic, the more complicated, the less likely.
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Post by quincannon on May 22, 2013 7:31:24 GMT -6
DC: There is absolutely nothing complicated or abnormal about the movement of five companies of cavalry up onto a ridge with three staying in place, and two moving forward in an attempt to see what they could see. Nothing.
As to LSH and the position of the officers. When forty guys are pinned and vastly outnumbered there is precious little direction of a defense required. What is required is that every possible weapons being brought to bear on the enemy. I refer you to the story of Company E, 7th Marines at the Chosin. Phillips (CO) and Ball (XO) were both killed among their troops on the firing line in the midst of their marines, the situation there being so desperate. In the normal course of things that is the last place they would be. Command eventually fell upon Yancey(PLT LDR), who was wounded several times in that same firing line that he had to stop shooting and work his jaws with his hands so he could speak. There is nothing here out of place. Nothing.
Then there are those Indian accounts. The same general source you have for the equipment dropping transvestites also tell us that the Kamakazis in loin cloth, got in among Company E and ran off their horses. That was on Cemetery Ridge where Company E had dismounted, and several hundred yards from LSH . This does not equate with a sudden stop on LSH by a zillion Indians. It speaks to a rather conventional dismount and fight on foot by one company, while the battalion's other company stays mounted and provides support and cover for them.
Then there is Kellogg's mule. If the sudden onslaught on LSH/Battle Ridge is to be valid, then Kellogg's mule is the fastest mule in Christendom, to get all that was down from LSH, before he got whacked, to where his body was discovered. It's a good ways down there.
Again to many things have to be just right in your scenario, and belief in the conventional is all that is required in the one generally accepted.
Why is it that the most simple answer cannot be accepted? Has this battle been so ingrained into the American experience that we cannot accept the fact that a rather ordinary Lieutenant Colonel of Cavalry overextended his command to the point the situation was unrecoverable. Why do we have to place hidden meaning, instantaneous overwhelming force, and equipment dropping transvestites into something as simple as a guy doing what he always did, the way he always did it, and was bested in the trying?
And you still have not addressed that live fire live target exercise I spoke of last night. You can only do two things explain it or ignore it, but neither one of those courses of action changes it.
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Post by Yan Taylor on May 22, 2013 8:10:25 GMT -6
Hi Chuck, yes I agree over E Company, as I have stated below (I had written this before I seen your first post of the day) E Company could have went down along the same lines as C Company (in the process of deployment) and the still mounted HQ and F Company withdrew under enemy pressure.
Hello Fred, I have been following this morning’s debate between yourself and DC and found it very interesting, and I believe there could be some common ground between your two opinions, the point you make concerning Kellogg could seem like any movement crossing this area could have been in haste with the slow moving reporter getting caught in an every man for himself scenario, but could Custer have decided on Cemetery hill as a place to stop and defend? This could have resulted in the wing being cut up and E Company being dismounted caught the brunt of it and the survivors from F Company and the HQ moved up on to LSH, this is where DCs theory comes into play, because I remember you telling me that the Indians used a knob (or knoll) of high ground to pour fire into the Troops on LSH (again the time factor comes into play because I don’t know if any warriors had reach this far east at this stage), so this could give DCs shot off their horses scenario some credit, the leading point of the withdrawal from Cemetery hill could have been the HQ and their quest to get out of the line of fire, this group containing the HQ could have ran into this fusillade of fire when it crested LSH and simply got stopped dead in its tracks.
Ian.
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Post by quincannon on May 22, 2013 8:24:18 GMT -6
Ian: The shell and cartridge evidence I mentioned last night is in a place which suggests that Company E engaged in a stand up fight for some time, perhaps five or as many as ten minutes. This line was most probably in front of where the horses were, and that would lead me to believe that those that ran off the horses approached from the flank, the most likely flank being E's right. These people most likely got between the horses and the firing line forcing it into disarray. This then by extension would mean that F would have been to the left and well to the rear of E, either by design or addressing another enemy threat, the latter being most likely. Drawing this all out on a map explains the long line of E down Cemetery Ravine, and the cluster of F on LSH. Take out your map, place upon it a tissue paper overlay. , put the horse holder position about where the visitors center is. Place E's firing line a hundred yards in front of it, perhaps as many as two hundred down in the ravine facing the river. The put F further up the ridge to the left watching deep ravine. See if it makes sense to you
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Post by Yan Taylor on May 22, 2013 8:38:32 GMT -6
Chuck, I have found this amongst my data concerning the Battle of La Fière Bridge, I wonder if this Battle could have been the base for the film ‘’Saving Private Ryan’’, the PzAbt 100 lost four vehicles over the course of two days (6th and 7th of June); One Pz III Ausf G and two R35 (Renaults) on the 6th One H39 (Hotchkiss) on the 7th I believe that all of these AFVs were destroyed by Bazooka fire from men belonging to the 505 Regt 82nd AB.
PS; Sorry for taking things off thread folks.
Chuck I will try out your exercise with the map.
Ian.
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Post by Yan Taylor on May 22, 2013 9:04:13 GMT -6
Chuck just did the map test and the results are in;
E Company on the location you provided would be open from any attacks from Cemetery Ravine, especially from there Right flank, there is also a crossing point facing their position (it’s called on my map Gibbons Ford at the point of Squaw Creek) and any Warriors who used this Crossing would come out around the place where the Kellogg marker is located, so maybe this was the point of E Companies fire.
F Company (again at the point you placed them) could view Deep Ravine from this stand point, there is also a narrow gully on my map that could also be used by the Warriors to infiltrate the Cemetery Hill position, this gully runs down the length of the South Skirmish Line.
Ian.
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Post by Yan Taylor on May 22, 2013 9:25:59 GMT -6
Interestingly enough, E Company had 37 men (that’s if you take Smith out of the totals), and if this Company formed Skirmish Line and then take out the Horse holders, you are left with 28 men, now I may be mistaken here but was there reports of 28 men from E Company found around Deep Ravine or Cemetery Ravine ? What happened to the nine horse holders I don’t know.
Ian.
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Post by quincannon on May 22, 2013 9:35:45 GMT -6
Ian: The impression I get is that E initially faced the river, and events transpired that this line was bent back to the right due to enemy action. Not the only explanation but one that does fit with the hostiles using the many small fords down there including the Gibbon Ford.
Horse holders: I suspect some died in place, in and around Cemetery Ridge. Those that may have survived scattered, probably into Cemetery Ravine.
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Post by Yan Taylor on May 22, 2013 9:49:44 GMT -6
Yes Chuck that does fit, but as you mentioned E Company got detached from its horse holders, which may have been placed in any dead ground behind, I don’t know if there was any such ground available around this location but they would have moved back a way to the rear of the Skirmish Line, and this would have left the horse holder vulnerable to any flanking attacks, E Company may have shifted its base of fire to cover any threat from its right flank, but this story of the Suicide boys attacking E Company may have been against the horse holders and not the Skirmish Line.
Ian.
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Post by quincannon on May 22, 2013 9:55:26 GMT -6
Ian: I think the "suicide boys" ah, these romantic names, were directed against E's horse holders. Most things turn out to be simple Ian, we are the ones that complicate them.
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