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Post by ltreilly on Oct 6, 2007 18:59:30 GMT -6
An open question to LBH battlefield stompers:
What is the feasibility of having a worthwhile look at non-NPS owned sites related to LBH by sticking to the public roads? I realize that I'm touching on a vast subject here, but any hints would be welcome. Of all places, I stumbled upon a guy's videos of LBH on Youtube, and he seemed to be doing this sort of thing, at least to a limited extent.
By perusing this board, I have figured out that the Crow's Nest is going to take a special tour to get up there, but what about the Lone Tipi, the Morass, Reno's fight, etc.? Can I get a look at some these areas on public roads, or will a guided tour be the only option? What about access to the more immediate non-NPS areas, like Nye-Cartwright? Any suggestions on the best tours?
I want to really put the research into this LBH trip (whenever it may be), but at the same time I realize that this will be essentially an introductory visit.
Thanks a lot
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Post by fred on Oct 6, 2007 19:52:33 GMT -6
You are going to have a problem here. Much of the land is privately owned and you would be trespassing. The route up Davis Creek is all private, I believe with several owners. It is also gated off: ranch gates, poles with barbed wire. Easy to open, but again, trespassing. I was up on the Crow's Nest in June, but someone recently told me it is now off-limits. Why or how, I don't know.
Reno Creek is somewhat easier, up to a point. There is a public access road through much of it, though the road does not skirt the creek itself. It also turns into a dirt and gravel road rather quickly. You can, however, get beyond the morass (you would be starting from the LBH valley, not the divide). Once you are past the morass, the trail forks and there is a public road sign there (though I'll be dipped in manure if I can remember what the sign says). The right fork is what you would want to take, but if you do, at this point you would be on private land again and the owner has blocked the road in several places. This would be the road to the divide. It's unfortunate. The left fork I believe is still public access, but only to a point and then it goes private as well.
When I was there in June, the Keogh Sector trail at the battlefield was open, but it isn't always so. Luce and Nye-Cartwright are off-limits, as are MTC (except along the access road) and Cedar Coulee. Sharpshooters' Ridge and Weir are also off-limits, but who cares? The NPS doesn't own either and they can't say squat if they spot you on them, take it from me, I've done it. Luce, Nye, MTC, and Cedar will be a problem for you if you are caught, and who needs the aggravation. Don't ask me the obvious question; I can't answer it.
The land leading up to Benteen-Reno Hill (from the Reno Creek area) is also private, as is the flats and the Ford A crossing, itself. Also, Ford A ain't where it used to be; it's all dried up and the river has cut a new channel. Reno's skirmish line is private land and Ford B is too. You can see the general area where the eastern lone tepee was, but who cares? Nothing happened there and the whole "lone tepee" business is overrated anyway. This will bring the bolts of Thor down on me, but you've been bilked if you believe any of that twaddle about the traditional "lone tepee."
All in all, it is a pretty sorry state of affairs. I understand the former park superintendant, Jim Court, used to run tours, but no longer does. I don't know who, if anyone, does any more. My friends and I had a private tour because one of us was good friends with Richard Fox, but that is not generally available.
The biggest drawback to all of this is the Davis Creek thing. That leads to the Crow's Nest and missing that experience is really a shame. You can manage with everything else and if you have a decent camera with a zoom, you will be fairly STRAC. It's also too bad about Luce and Nye.
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by harpskiddie on Oct 6, 2007 20:16:11 GMT -6
Reily:
There are tours still offered, but what they may include seems to change from time to time. I will be doing one next year in June, and will be posting details in a couple of months, along with an invitation for interested parties to join the festivities. Fred is correct about the privacy problems involved. Trespass is not considered a social event in Montana, or wasn't last I heard; but those can often be overcome with the right tour operator, and some well placed inducements.
I don't know how you came to this board, but if you came via the George Armstrong Custer page, you will find some links there to tours.
Gordie, I'd rather have a paper doll that I can call my own - a doll that other fellas cannot steal..............
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Post by ltreilly on Oct 6, 2007 20:19:43 GMT -6
Many thanks for all the details, Fred. I'm thinking that I'd better just stick with a tour if I want to get back towards the divide. ;D I've been known to jump a fence or two in my battlefield explorations, but the prospect of irate ranchers is a bit too much for me here. If a special tour is the only game in town, well, I can't complain too much. I might investigate driving about Reno Creek a bit. Jim Court's website is still up, but who knows how old that is. He might be able to point me in the direction of those who have the necessary "in" with the landowners. It seems like there's several tour operators that promise more than just the NPS site, so that might be worthwhile if they can get on the Crow land or what have you. Thanks again for the help. I somehow hoped there would be a miracle answer, but this is sort of what I expected. Here in VA and environs there are usually enough public roads to see a good portion of non-preserved battlefields pretty well, but I guess I'm in the Wild West now.
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Post by ltreilly on Oct 6, 2007 20:22:48 GMT -6
Reily: There are tours still offered, but what they may include seems to change from time to time. I will be doing one next year in June, and will be posting details in a couple of months, along with an invitation for interested parties to join the festivities. Fred is correct about the privacy problems involved. Trespass is not considered a social event in Montana, or wasn't last I heard; but those can pften be overcome with the right tour operator, and some well placed inducements. I don't know how you came to this board, but if you came via the George Armstrong Custer page, you will find some links there to tours. Gordie, I'd rather have a paper doll that I can call my own - a doll that other fellas cannot steal.............. Thanks for the info. I haven't delved into the tour options fully yet, but I will keep my ears open for opportunities. The problem, of course, is coordinating my trip with a tour, but I will see if eventually something will line up. I hear you about trespassing, it's not something I want to get involved with. As much as I'd love to see this stuff, I want to do it the legit way. Thanks again
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Post by fred on Oct 6, 2007 20:44:36 GMT -6
ltreilly--
The problem with this LBH business is that you go there and you'll miss something. I was there for 8 days in June and I already have enough questions and enough changed opinions to want to go back and re-do the whole damned thing. And then it expands... now it's Davis Creek. Who the hell cared, right? But now I have enough new questions to want to go there again. The location of Halt Two, for example. I was told it was one place, Tom Heski-- in a recent Research Review article, said it's another. (Heski is supposed to be the last word on Davis Creek.)
And, of course, the "lone tepee" business is another.
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by ltreilly on Oct 6, 2007 21:01:24 GMT -6
Your point is well taken. I know from my Civil War battlefield visits that you can never "see it all". That being said, I'll be happy to see the highlights once, and then I can worry about return visits!
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Post by Diane Merkel on Oct 6, 2007 21:31:59 GMT -6
If at all possible, I would suggest you try to go during the CBHMA meeting in late June. They always have a good tour (with great guides such as Heski) which is extremely reasonable compared to the private tours, and you'll meet lots of people who love to "talk Custer." My first one was in 1991 and later became known as Magnum's March to Hell. It was awful -- pouring rain, deep mud, hot as hell -- but we loved every minute of it. We walked from Reno-Benteen, over the private lands, through cow pastures, over/under the fences, up to Weir Point and other buttes from hell, and all the way back to civilization past LSH and to the visitors' center. I don't think I've ever been so tired in my life, but it was wonderful.
P.S. -- If you're not a walker, I'd start training now!
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Post by ltreilly on Oct 6, 2007 21:37:43 GMT -6
Thanks for the advice. That (or something similar) is starting to sound like the best option. I'll keep investigating private tours, but CBHMA might be the best bet. If it's in late June, then it will be a trip just for the special tour...I'll make the more conventional NPS visit in the off-season if possible.
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Post by fred on Oct 7, 2007 7:42:08 GMT -6
I would really like to take one of those CBHMA tours. I had forgotten about that particular avenue. I would also like to link up with Heski. I have been told-- more than once-- that he is the unchallenged expert on Davis Creek. That area has become fascinating to me, though I am not sure why. Maybe it's because I have read so many diverse opinions on the trek from Busby. You have Benteen who said he moved at a trot, despite it being pitch-black out, and you have others who said they had to grab the tail of the horse in front just to keep from getting lost. Then-- I think it was-- Godfrey said he had to pull to the side just to get his bearings.
When you go up Davis Creek valley, it is broad, wide, a gentle upward slope, relatively rolling terrain.... Why all the fuss?
Going over the ground really gives you a new perspective on things. The Davis Creek area, the South Skirmish Line, and the general area of Reno's skirmish line really did it for me. I was stunned at how vast all of these were. When you look at the LBH valley from the foothills to the west, you become amazed at just how arrogant we must have been. How the hell anyone could have thought they could fight a battle with 140+ men, spread 5 yards apart in an area of that size... amazing! I'm ready for a return trip.
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by elisabeth on Oct 7, 2007 7:53:44 GMT -6
Maybe it'd be an interesting experiment to have a bunch of people do that route with themselves and their horses blindfolded. Might help explain the horror stories from the night march ...
Even from photos, the sheer vastness comes across. It rams home the time factor on the battlefield, apart from all else. Simply to traverse those spaces would have taken time, especially on tired horses. It makes the argument that the whole thing lasted perhaps no more than half an hour look pretty dubious.
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Post by fred on Oct 7, 2007 14:57:34 GMT -6
Even from photos, the sheer vastness comes across. It rams home the time factor on the battlefield, apart from all else. Simply to traverse those spaces would have taken time, especially on tired horses. It makes the argument that the whole thing lasted perhaps no more than half an hour look pretty dubious. Oh, I agree, Elisabeth. When I went there last year, I was surprised at how wide MTC is. I said to myself, "This is a 'coulee'? It's more like a small valley." Then I was surprised at the width of Ford B, though I shouldn't have been, since Bruce Liddic points it out. This last trip, however-- in June-- was a real eye-opened. The breadth of the LBH valley, Davis Creek, and the amazing SSL... wow! Reno Creek was much as I thought it might be, though the creek itself is much narrower than I imagined. All these creeks are. And half the time they're dry. A friend of mine is sending me a photo of Reno Creek-- with water. We parked our cars on the dirt trail, then walked over to a grave of a cowboy who was buried near the creek. I left my camera in the car and refused to leave the LBH without at least one picture of water in Reno Creek. But the vastness is stunning. If you ever decide to visit the battlefield, Elisabeth, I will make a point of showing it to you and some how making arrangements to move us from Busby up Davis, along Reno Creek, then along the field itself. Also, this business pointed out by John Gray about the whereabouts of the morass and its constantly moving smacks of balderdash to me. When you see the morass-- exactly where participants say it was-- that baby ain't movin' nohow. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by elisabeth on Oct 7, 2007 17:28:15 GMT -6
A gorgeous prospect, Fred. Thanks!
Re the morass: presumably it's spring-fed? In which case it definitely wouldn't move.
Off-topic, one thing that's always puzzled me a little is why neither Custer nor Reno watered at the morass. Not sure if it means anything, though ...
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Post by fred on Oct 7, 2007 18:24:23 GMT -6
Off-topic, one thing that's always puzzled me a little is why neither Custer nor Reno watered at the morass. Not sure if it means anything, though ... Elisabeth-- I think it means a lot. I believe it is because once past the divide, Custer moved very quickly. While I no longer believe the "lone tepee" that we generally talk about is of any significance, we are told that Custer refused to stop there and spurred everyone forward as quickly as he could. I think that was the general tenor of the whole move down Reno Creek, only interrupted when both columns neared the LBH. Reno never stopped until he reached Ford A and even the most sanguine of testimonies have the delay there as being very short. When Custer turned north, he watered, then moved-- hell-bent-for-leather-- up the slopes to Reno Hill. Witnesses remarked about his speed. If the DeRudio sighting is accurate and his timing is correct-- and it fits in with a number of other witnesses' comments-- then Custer again moved at a very rapid rate, arriving at the Luce/Nye-Cartwright complex, very quickly indeed. That's when the first volleys were heard. If you put the pencil and ruler to the map, you will see the whole operation was done at a very quick pace, the only delays being to water at North Fork environs and a short delay around the tepee grouping in the flats. I figure once Custer believed he had been spotted he moved as rapidly as he could. Once he got the Gerard report from Cooke, that only convinced him to continue to move as quickly as possible. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by harpskiddie on Oct 7, 2007 18:47:23 GMT -6
Elisabeth and Fred:
Godfrey's description of a "place where a stream of running water had its source" can be misleading. It was, I believe, the result of what Fred mentions above - that Ash Creek does not always have water in it, and when it does, it is not always a continuous running stream, i.e. there will be places with water and places without. the same holds true for the forks, South and North. In late June, there are only certain places where a large number of horses can be watered.
These places don't change, because it is a matter of terrain. What changes is the amounts of rain and runoff that provide the water. Sometimes even the "watering places [it is a mistake to call them holes]" are themselves dry, or some of them are anyway. The morass at which Benteen first stopped and into which the mules plunged as he marched away, is not a deep extensive pool of water, but a section of the creek which often has water in it, and happened to that day.
Reno did not water at the morass, because he was on the opposite side of the creek [where there was no water] until he crossed over near the confluence of the South Fork and the main stream, and the morass is farther east. Custer didn't stop to water as he was moving forward and didn't WANT to stop. His Crow scouts, and Bouyer, could have told him that there was water ahead. It might have been his original intention to water in the Little Horn. Remember that he did not know the exact location of his target at the time.
Custer eventually watered in the North Fork, at a place where there is usually/often water and which could accomodate his horses all at the same time, which is why his watering did not take more than 10 minutes or so [and why he had to send word to the officers - the length of the lines].
Gordie, all at once am I several stories high, knowing I'm on the street where you live.........................
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