The "Real" Tom Custer ...

[BrokenSword]

Thanks Gordie-

It seems that McDougall's statement about Kanipe was something I had encountered some time ago. And - I have seen a number of theories as to the veracity of his story. Hence, my warm and cool thing. Sigh..... I'm so easily influenced.

Given the circumstances of that day - confusion, terror, shock* - the details of Kanipe's actions/activities could easily be scrambled or completely blanked out, in the minds of the principles involved. I have to cut Kanipe some slack on his story until I am told better.

*My personal theory is that Reno, and others did indeed go into real states of mental shock - nearly incapacitating him and incapacitating others, Moylan perhaps? Its too easy to throw the word coward at some of these people.

Shock is a medical condition and has nothing to do with 'cowardice.' Using the word 'coward' against some of them, may have more to do with what real cavalrymen had to shovel around everyday.

M

P.S. - Of course, you are one of those I do not have to preface a comment to with, "Now. As I see it..."

[Tricia]

Brokenone--

I'm with you, I go hot and cold about Kanipe. One day I believe he was a messenger from GAC/TWC, the other, a deserter. Personally, I think TWC was too busy entertaining the Custer clan to really give a damn ... and perhaps it added to the collapse of that company.

--t

[BrokenSword]

Trish- "...Personally, I think TWC was too busy entertaining the Custer clan to really give a damn ... and perhaps it added to the collapse of that company...."

Fascinating statement. I've been grappling with the picture I've tried to form in my mind as to the overall 'mood' of the troops in Custer's 5 Companies - just before the shooting began.

I'm sure it ran the gamut from fearful to "Let's PARTY!" (They were after all, mostly little more than kids) Never-the-less, I wonder about the general 'feel' the troops had. Could help me decide on Kanipe's role. Just glad to get out, or Can't wait to get back up there for the turkey shoot?

M

["Hunk" Papa]

My secret sources have revealed that there is no need to worry about Elisabeth. She is unplugged computerwise as Tricia has said, but is well and taking a well deserved opportunity to crow over a magnificent piece of detective work. I also understand that the sampling of some great French wines is on her agenda in the not too distant future.

Tom Custer? Fearless fighter, self-indulgent man and loyal brother. Not a patch on Elisabeth!

Hunk

[harpskiddie]

Michael:

The only evidence we have is from the few men who were sent back or who lagged behind for one reason or another. Conventional wisdom is that these men cannot be relied upon, and that may be true, but if we don't credit ANYTHING they said, then we are left to only conjecture.

Martin, Knipe and [gulp] Goldin, all more or less described troopers who were eager and excited to get into action. So did Thompson, who allegedly tried to REJOIN the command [along with Watson, I believe] despite his horse playing out. Then there is another tale of one of the scouts encountering another trooper trying to get his horse up, while saying "Me go Custer." Even if all of these are apocryphal, it shows that there was some basis for some to believe that was the case. Which is better than no basis, as in "guess."

One other thing to remember, if you've forgotten, is that despite all the theories of disorganization and mass panic and a rout and scattered corn and buffalo hunts and like that [and despite my own suggestions that there were not really any skirmish lines as we know them to supposedly have been, at least at Calhoun, based on MY interpretation of the markers] - despite all of that, there is pretty clear indications that the troops stayed more or less together and died more or less together, and there were not bodies strewn all over that couple of thousand acres of battlefield [and yes, I have seen the rebuttal that frightened men do not run, but huddle together].

I think the OVERALL mood changed from one of "Let's get the beer up here for the celebration. Yates, where's that cake" [cakes and ale - get it?] to "Look to your weapons, men" to "Holy S**t!" I don't however, think that this was a quick change. I think everybody still thought "It will be alright, won't it?" up until the time the first serious fighting started, when it became obvious that the Indians were not running, and were not going to run.

When exactly that happened, if it did, depends upon which theory one ascribes to. Me, I'm one of those stupid people who don't agree with those whom I am supposed to agree with, and am therefore subjected to abuse and derogation and looks of withering scorn, until I, like wild, become irrelevant, which I suppose is worse than stupid, but not as bad as damned to hell.

Gordie,
MC

And to think I gave up a quiet retirement for this!!!!......................................

[BrokenSword]

Master of Chaos Gordie-

It is rather like the Hubble Telescope when it was first deployed, isn't it? Try as you might, even though you carefully twist, turn and minutely adjust every knob you have - it still won't quite focus.

I agree that whether they were riding, walking, running like Hell or facing death with "grim determination," they pretty much stayed together. Almost in an ordered way and yet, not quite. A few scattered and disassociated bodies, but not in the pattern of say, billiard balls scattered over the table top after the break. More like abandoned cars along a highway after a sudden snow fall. Disorganized, but most close to the pavement. Pretty much as you describe.

The images of a mouse being chased around the room by a cat come to mind. Stopping to snarl now and then, perhaps briefly startling the pursuing cat to a halt, and then quickly breaking in another direction. Fur scattered along the route of escape, but trapped in a room and soon worn down. Finally pounced upon for the finish. Maybe more than one mouse and one cat.

I have had the sense that morale was rather good just before 'it' happened. Mostly because of the witnesses you mention. But then there was that 'Please Mr. Custer', song that kept imaging in my head.

I agree whole-heartedly that a progression of emotions swept through the ranks. Standard event there. I think perhaps in a relatively short span of time came the tipping point. They weren't in a jungle (oops, non-PC moment there: I mean rain forest), or even thick timber where one cannot see to any great distance. As rolling as the hills and dales are, and even with the dusty air, much of the spectacle was laid out before the troops in Cine-A-Rama with full Surround Sound. Causing that "OH! S***!" moment in time you mentioned. I just haven't been too sure how high the confidence level really was at the start. Obviously, it was just a bit too high in our favorite Golden-Haired One.

Anyway, thank you for the time to write out that response. Good stuff. I shall frail away at trying to get this thing into focus in my head.

M

[BrokenSword]

Hunk- "...I also understand that the sampling of some great French wines is on her agenda.."

And I was worried about her

Well, it would seem that I am grape #652 on the Custer World grapevine. Such is the life of a Broken One.

M

[Tricia]

Ah, yes ... the "oh, sh--iit" moment. And I thought Phillip and myself had come up with what we joked were Custer's last words (and casino )! And for those of you who think I'm bashing Tommy-boy, he is my favourite Custer, as well as the biggest problem child. From what I believe is his floundering in lust over Libbie, to his encounters with Wild Bill, Tom appears to be the most human of the family ...

Back to Kanipe: yep, the sergeant's all over the place. Perhaps noting his captain's lack of loyalty to the men the fellow commanded, and sees how TWC would abandon them for the glories of his big brother, it wouldn't phase me one bit to believe that Mister Sergeant Daniel thought he could do the very same thing. Especially when the chips were down.

--t.

Chairchick, NACCers
MST, the Nuthouse

[Tricia]

grichard said:

Tom Custer? Fearless fighter, self-indulgent man and loyal brother. Not a patch on Elisabeth!

Hunk

Funny how you bring up ... Elisabeth. Elisabeth ... hmm ... Libbie? Poor, poor TWC. He'd been condemned to to forever flail about in the beauty of his older brother's wife. Maybe if he could only force her to partake in a little larger experiment with the fruits of the grape, French, of course!

Too bad, so sad, eh?
--t.

Chairchick, NACCers
MST, the Nuthouse

[harpskiddie]

Tom was apparently well-liked by the enlisted men. Henry Lange of E Company described him as "slouchy" which I take to mean not fastidious in his dress, and not demanding of the men in this regard. While Armstrong had a reputation, deserved or not, for being overly demanding and a bit of a martinet, Tom apparently was, if not a polar opposite, something close to it.

Gordie,
MC

[Tricia]

From when is Lange's description taken? Before or after the battle? Now don't go getting all frivolous here ... facts, just the facts, sir.

But if TWC was a sloucher--so to speak--could that not be an indictation that he didn't really care about their readiness or sharpness for battle and let his men slide into oblivion? What if C had held their ground with L? Aren't we putting a little too much blame on Reno and none on the Boy General's younger brother mismanagement? Well, at least he learned from the best of the Peter Principle Believers!

And Gordie ... sleep? Sleep? Me? On a day off? I'm living P's life it seems; ever since he was a little boy the weekends meant one thing--staying up as late as he wanted. It carried into adulthood and whilst I would go to bed at 10.30, he'd be up until five. I was up to 3.30 last morning, and well, I'm working on another late one. As long as I have enough fuel--that would be vino--and get up in time for the the ISU's Grand Prix Cup of China, I'll be okay! And to think tomorrow I get to see the premiere of Johnny Weir's flamining flameouts ... and Tim Gunnisms.

Emily
Chairchick, NACCers
MST, The Nuthouse

[gocav76]

Tricia, All I know of Tom Custer is the little thats always written about him in the various books about the battle. However after reading your post where you state ""Back to Kanipe: yep, the sergeant's all over the place. Perhaps noting his captain's lack of loyalty to the men the fellow commanded, and sees how TWC would abandon them for the glories of his big brother, it wouldn't phase me one bit to believe that Mister Sergeant Daniel thought he could do the very same thing. Especially when the chips were down."
Well it got me to thinking,that you may very well be correct. If I was an enlisted man and saw my company commander taking off to leave us to the mercy of a inexperienced Lieutenant-I might feel unwanted and neglected. Good point Tricia!

[BrokenSword]

Hummmm....................

Have any of you ever had a (single) friend that just couldn't/wouldn't commit to a long term relationship? Or, who just wasn't going to EVER 'Take the Plunge'? And yet, still needed a special longer-term relationship with someone of the opposite sex, and who was a little more intimate than simply as a friend.

A relationship that never would, or even could, become physical. In fact becoming physical (okay - having sex) would destroy the relationship, making it no longer useful for its true purpose.

If so, have you then maybe seen that person attach themselves to someone that was 'safe'? That is, someone who was taken? An unspoken, yet understood and agreed upon boundry line. I have. Male and female friends.

More special than a sister or brother, but one who held only the remotest possibility of becoming TOO special - that is sexual, with the presumptive exclusivity that would entail. The remoter the possibility the better and safer. Intimacy without responsibility. The need for someone 'special' and who was always there, but who would not complicate things - so to speak. Wink. Wink.

That is the image of the Tom/Libbie relationship that has formed in my mind. To this point in time anyway.

M
P.S. I always liked Tom best, NOT Dicky [Gordie gets it, anyway]

[clw]

I think you've nailed it, Michael.

And Mom always liked you best.

[BrokenSword]

clw-

Thank you. Let me add a little to that.

Tom may have wanted more from Libbie, who's to really know? But, I think, that if Libbie had ever even indicated that kind of interest or offered in any way, Tom would have about-faced and mached off.

It's just my opinion, that Tom was too loyal to George to have cuckholded him. However strong Tom's 'alley cat' nature was, I don't see it going there. Even an alley cat has a few prinicples.

M