logan
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Posts: 202
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Post by logan on Apr 28, 2023 9:15:11 GMT -6
Apparently, in the British military of the 19th Century, maybe even continues today, that the officers had to have a reasonable ability of sketching/drawing areas, as in landscapes/terrain not maps, as obviously photographers didn’t always accompany patrols, etc.m but drawing was used for future reference to identify locations, either of military importance or a route being followed.
Was this expected of cavalry officers too, maybe as a visual reference when reporting back to their camp/fort ?
Also, not sure if mentioned before, did they have their own version of a sand table on the ground when planning a mission?
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Post by herosrest on Apr 29, 2023 3:16:29 GMT -6
This was a principal duty of the Engineer Corps, whose Officers accompanied all major expeditions for the purpose of mapping and bridging routes of march and astronomical observatoons, besides time keeping. They reported annually to the CoE and these were reported to Congress. They are a matter of record, together with all military reports published with accounts of expeditures; for Congress and available through Hathi Trust.
They are an interesting and time consuming read. Battle buffs hone in to 06251876 but there is so much more.
Maguire was Terry's EO and devolved that role to McClernand with Gibbon, and Wallace with 7th Cavalry.
A principal reason for confusions with time, the time of the place (Whittaker and Wallace) was that on May 30 at Davis Ck. Maguires equipment including two chronometers, were wrecked when his wagon fell of a bridge but no-one realised for some number of days. Hence the pages and pages of bridge building technique in Maguire's 1877 report and various requisite recommendations. They didn't have accurate time and could not update watches for the solstice.
The current theory of time derives from Walter M. Camp and Railway Time at St. Paul and Bismarck. Be that as it may, Maguire lost the means of gaining accurate time. There's a book in it since this was how the entire country was mapped up to that time.
Regards.
Added. There was one other source of maps. All Post Offices were licenced and that required a map of the locale and routes of local travel. A huge untapped resource of stuff way back to the start of business at West Point and Benedict Arnold.
Not a lot of people know this. The records are online. Look up your local post office in Federal records all the way back to its start. Many, of course, were closed over time but the information is still on file.
Garryowen is a Post Office. Now a Police Station as well. That should be fun. Stick a stamp on it 🤠
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Post by herosrest on Apr 29, 2023 3:53:20 GMT -6
Remains of Maguire's wagon lay in the river until maybe the 1960's and local lore and acumen, in that wooley way of history produced THIS. Wooly Wagon at Custer's Cottage where you can sleep like a pioneer and live the old days in modern comfortd at Medora, on Custer's trail. Things to do in Medora. You can even get married there. The name Medora is a girl's name of Greek origin meaning "mother's gift".
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Post by noggy on Apr 29, 2023 6:51:39 GMT -6
Apparently, in the British military of the 19th Century, maybe even continues today, that the officers had to have a reasonable ability of sketching/drawing areas, as in landscapes/terrain not maps, as obviously photographers didn’t always accompany patrols, etc.m but drawing was used for future reference to identify locations, either of military importance or a route being followed. Was this expected of cavalry officers too, maybe as a visual reference when reporting back to their camp/fort ? Also, not sure if mentioned before, did they have their own version of a sand table on the ground when planning a mission? This will be mostly speculation, but I can throw in that plus my own experience with sand tables. I have not heard anything about officers sketching out stuff. Maybe due to the very mobile enemy who lived as roamers, it wasn't that necessary as in a conventional/more fixed setting. Often the Army would not have the luxury of operating in familiar areas, instead going into basically the unknown. The 1876 campaign is a good example. The importance of scouts who knew the area the Army ventured into is frequently highlighted, and there are numerous accounts of detachments basically getting lost due to operating in unknown terrain without competent guides. As for sand tables, in my days, we only used them a few times and that was if there was a smaller and more "fixed" OP, like a village etc, or as an educational tool. I think it's best use would be for training and hypothetical scenarios/wargaming. Which is hard to do with an enemy who prefers hit and run or not fighting at all. I would imagine it was used at West Point etc, like it was at the military college in Canada (wiki says it was used from 1890 there). As for the nature of the warfare on the Plains, I don't think it would be of any use that maps could not give, as there were not large formations clashing on the battlefield, but rather small scale running battles/skirmishes. Also, if we look at the 1876 Campaign again, the area of operations (basically the Northern Plains) was so enormous that a sand table would not be particularly useful. But of course, using a stick on the ground to illustrate something was something which happened now and then
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Jenny
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Post by Jenny on May 8, 2023 10:33:59 GMT -6
Wish I'd been along. I would have sketched the men in their daily routines. Then I would have been killed and my papers would have flown all over the prairie and been picked up by Indians or others who plastered the walls of tents and tipis with them or brought them back where you all would be discussing them right now.
J
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logan
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Post by logan on May 9, 2023 4:37:45 GMT -6
Interestingly, at present one of the books I’m reading is about the officers and men of the Ninth Cavalry (buffalo soldiers) in which it is described that the sort of the examinations of cadets at West Point included drawing, but unfortunately, doesn’t give details of what the drawing entailed.
I’d imagine the use of a stick on the ground to quickly instruct officers what is expected of movements, etc., was utilised often.
Funnily enough, it is used in the film ‘The Alamo’ (1960) by Travis to explain why the Alamo should be held, plus in ‘Ulzana’s Raid’ where MacKintosh was demonstrating how the Apaches had outwitted them, but how he could discover a way to intercept them.
Indians didn’t care much for paper, letters or otherwise, as Kellogg’s notes, etc.m were scattered about the battlefield, much I think was collected by those visiting tye battlefield in the aftermath, likely officers and troopers of the burial parties.
I don’t think the Indians liked having their photos taken either, assumed it took part of their soul
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Post by herosrest on May 9, 2023 9:45:29 GMT -6
Interestingly, at present one of the books I’m reading is about the officers and men of the Ninth Cavalry (buffalo soldiers) in which it is described that the sort of the examinations of cadets at West Point included drawing, but unfortunately, doesn’t give details of what the drawing entailed. I’d imagine the use of a stick on the ground to quickly instruct officers what is expected of movements, etc., was utilised often. Funnily enough, it is used in the film ‘The Alamo’ (1960) by Travis to explain why the Alamo should be held, plus in ‘Ulzana’s Raid’ where MacKintosh was demonstrating how the Apaches had outwitted them, but how he could discover a way to intercept them. Indians didn’t care much for paper, letters or otherwise, as Kellogg’s notes, etc.m were scattered about the battlefield, much I think was collected by those visiting tye battlefield in the aftermath, likely officers and troopers of the burial parties. I don’t think the Indians liked having their photos taken either, assumed it took part of their soul Kellogg's notes were recovered. Those up to the 19th, I think.... maybe the 21st.... are actually held somewhere and can be viewed online. The later stuff got sent to the NewYork Herald and was published and is still sitting around online in dark corners somewhere. I linked into a book published with his last despatches some time ago. I'll see if I can hunt it up again. Obviously he wasn't taking notes during the midday 25th June 1876, since we would have nothing to disagree over about what happened. The odd thing is, if I remember, that despite his final words being of immense interest - they aren't since virtually no-one has been aware of them for............. 147 years. How very odd. link
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Post by herosrest on May 9, 2023 9:52:23 GMT -6
Getting there - In the mean time General Terry will move on the steamer to the mouth of the Big Horn River, scouting Pumpkin Creek, en route, with General Gibbon's cavalry as well as infantry, which are marching towards the Big Horn, on the north side of the Yellowstone. This part of the command will march up the Big Horn valley in order to intercept the Indians if they should attempt to escape from General Custer down that avenue. The hope is now strong, and, I believe, well founded, that this band of ugly customers, known as Sitting Bull's band, will be “gobbled” and dealt with as they deserve.Mark Kellogg, June 21, 1876.
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Post by herosrest on May 9, 2023 10:03:58 GMT -6
I'm pretty sure this is the one - link - With touching, printed tribute to Mrs. General George A. Custer, the "widow of a soldier who wore the Federal 'blue,'" from Laura S. Webb, "the widow of a soldier who wore the 'grey' and died in defence of the cause for which he fought." It's online somewhere with Kellogg's stuff squirrel'd away amongst the dirges. Hunting........ link
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Post by herosrest on May 9, 2023 10:07:12 GMT -6
There ya go..... pretty sure this is it. I have to pop out. linkThe Native Art may interest Jenny.
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Post by noggy on May 11, 2023 2:18:48 GMT -6
I don’t think the Indians liked having their photos taken either, assumed it took part of their soul It seems that there is a reference to Crazy Horse saying something like that. I have never heard of the majority of Indians with that view. As far as the Crazy Horse view......How would we know if it were true since Crazy Horse never gave an interview to anyone. ZERO....None at all. There never has been a picture that was definitely proven to be Crazy Horse. So in conclusion: Crazy Horse might have held that view but there is no evidence either way. Hope this helps Rosebud And meanwhile, people like SItting Bull were what we, translated, call "linse lice"; more than willing to be photographed. But I do remember a documentary about Apaches, and in it there was this amazing filmed sequence from either the 1910s or 1920s of an Apache dance which was regarded as holy. It is fantastic footage, but then a modern day Apache medicine man (or something similar to it) told that while this dance was techincally legit, the dancers were doing the steps backwards. I'll not swear to this, but the way I recall it, he said this was due to the fact that they had some reservations (no pun intended) about photos and film, because it could have a negative effect on their rituals/themselves. Ofc, there is also a huge chance here that this just the Apaches going "No way are we showing you our cool s--t, we'll do something else and you'll still pay, you white bastards." (Incredible to think that while this was filmed, socalled hostile Apaches still roamed free in the border area. Yet another reminder of how close in time this is) Noggy
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logan
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Post by logan on May 11, 2023 9:14:39 GMT -6
Regarding the use of a sand table...or stick use planning, I should’ve gave another well-known film’s use of it - ‘ZULU’ - about the defence of Rorke’s Drift.
Adendorff draws out the Zulu attack formation ‘The Horns Of The Bull’ in a wonderful piece of allowing both the British officers, but also audiences not aware of military tactics to quickly learn, plus after this, Lt Chard draws out how he plans to defend the outpost.
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Post by noggy on May 12, 2023 0:56:21 GMT -6
The current theory of time derives from Walter M. Camp and Railway Time at St. Paul and Bismarck. Be that as it may, Maguire lost the means of gaining accurate time. There's a book in it since this was how the entire country was mapped up to that time. Regards. I can't recall who.....But I do seem to recall that mention was made that watches were synchronized on the Far West when they held their meeting before Custer was sent up the Rosebud. Watches are not going to be hours off in the next 4 or 5 days. I would say Maguire would have a real good ability to document time on this trip. This is just another example of some trying to make this more difficult than it really was. Not a big deal at all. Actually irrelevant. ..Rosebud. This rang a bell in my head, and made me look around. I found this in what I have of books and notes, may be much more. 1. In RCOI, Lee and Wallace to bring up the subject 17th January (at least, that's what I have noted, the date may be off) 2. Godfrey says straight out "We compared watches to get the official time" (I'm from a small country with one time zone, does "official time actually mean here, people?) 3. John Gray mentions this several times in "Custer's Last Campaign", but that book I only borrowed at the time. I had to google to find the best quote, which is: "They must have synchronized their watches on official time, rather than simply making mental notes on discrepancies. This assumption is confirmed by several officers who recorded watch readings at the time, which match so well as to indicate synchronization.” Noggy
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Post by noggy on May 12, 2023 1:18:58 GMT -6
Regarding the use of a sand table...or stick use planning, I should’ve gave another well-known film’s use of it - ‘ZULU’ - about the defence of Rorke’s Drift. Adendorff draws out the Zulu attack formation ‘The Horns Of The Bull’ in a wonderful piece of allowing both the British officers, but also audiences not aware of military tactics to quickly learn, plus after this, Lt Chard draws out how he plans to defend the outpost. Imagine trying to to the same with mounted Plains Indians Noggy
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Post by herosrest on May 12, 2023 16:50:28 GMT -6
On the issue of time, there was a significant effort under by the Corps of Engineers in regards astronomical obsevation and working towards a national scheme of time keeping such as exists now. They needed the mathematical observation to establish it.
In terma of Maguire's loss of accurate timing with his pair of chronometers damaged when his wagon wrecked near Meadora, there was no master time during the march from 30 May until shaking down at Rosebud on 20/21 June. There is a cumulative difference of minutes per day which I did sit with a while and it is a few minutes over three weeks moving east to west.
The point however, is that there was not an accurate time available from Maguire at Rosebud. We do not know whose watch the 7th Cavalry, synchronised to. It would be beyond belief that they did not do it but there is nothing come to light to date to indicate the how.
This is how I understand the issue of Maguire's problem. His later 1877 report took up pages with drawings of trestles and recommendation that columns were equipped in future to make bridge building easier and disciplined. One of the reasons for ditching the wagon trains was the effort and time consumed by it, in advancing the wagons - a problem for thousands of years. There is little doubt that Maguire rose to the challenge of his embarrassment if his report is considered. The first time I looked at the report was a real WTF.... moment. Pages and pages of drawing of bridges.
They didn't have an accurate time of day. Command time was synchronised in some way.
June 21 is also longest day and a trigger for all sorts of time adjustments but whether, for example, this applied to Crook I haven't a clue. I was never able to turn up an EO's manual or guidelines. Maguire wasn't trumpeting his difficulty. It is mentioned in his second report.
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