Jenny
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Posts: 200
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Post by Jenny on Jan 13, 2023 22:48:46 GMT -6
Hello all,
Not sure if this belongs here but a question goes around in my head as I sit painting each and every one of the soldiers (and everyone else) who died at LBH:
I keep reading (Fred's book and many other places) that "Joe Schmoe died during the battle but his remains were never positively identified..." or words to that effect, but what exactly does that mean? I'd enjoy a bit of discussion about it here. I'm aware that sun beating down and dismemberment played a role, but the absolute inability to identify?
Does this have precedent?
j
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Post by tubman13 on Jan 14, 2023 4:31:22 GMT -6
You mention beating, not scalping, crushing of skull/face, bloating, discoloration from nearly 3 days in heat and sun. Identifying belongings stolen. Had buzzards been picking. If you had ever seen what comes out of those black bags at Dover AFB you'd get the idea.
Regards,
Tom
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Post by herosrest on Jan 14, 2023 6:09:25 GMT -6
The bodies would have been scavenged by predators, rodents and lizards (in particular) of which there was a huge population referred to by Frank Ami Mullford, from a visit in 1877. We know from comment left by survivors and Montana Column, camped in Little Bighorn valley that it was infested with swarms of flys and insects that would have left corpses blown with larvae - the reason for burial. The smell from the battlefield carried for miles and deterred roving Indians from returning to the area. Ghastly, is apt for the dead men and horses condition. With regards to identifications, immediately resistance ended the field was flooded with non- combatants taking trophies and a number of scares occurred where survivors and wounded 'came to life' and scared hell out of women and kids. Dead or alive, those approached afterwards were dead or dead again with skulls crushed and inner thighs slashed to the bone and higher. There is account that an arrow was shoved up Custer's appendage in revenge and the thigh slashed which of course was kept quiet. I believe that one source was Godfrey but i'd have to go hunting that up. The Indian population were hunters - butchery was considerably more than second nature. The corpse identified as Kellogg (the reporter) had an er taken. They were used to make necklaces. Brockmeyer and Runs Fearless At the time of Reno’s attack Ogalala 'Runs Fearless' counted second coup on Arikara scout, Bobtail Bull. Not long after the LBH battle, Runs Fearless' life tragically ended. On August 2, 1876, in a skirmish with the steamer Far West, he faced three men scouting from the boat. He succeeded to kill one of them, a scout named Wesley Brockmeyer, but in turn was fatally shot by George Morgan. The third scout, the boat's pilot Dave Campbell, scalped him; his scalp was later sent to the town of Bismarck for display. Lakotas were unable to recover his body after the skirmish and in a gruesome ending to Runs Fearless' story, soldiers from the boat mutilated his corpse with their knifes and cut off his head, which was used as a football in camp for several days. A sad and disturbing ending to the life of a great Lakota warrior. amertribes.proboards.com/thread/1054 |
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Post by noggy on Jan 14, 2023 13:48:17 GMT -6
Hello all, Not sure if this belongs here but a question goes around in my head as I sit painting each and every one of the soldiers (and everyone else) who died at LBH: I keep reading (Fred's book and many other places) that "Joe Schmoe died during the battle but his remains were never positively identified..." or words to that effect, but what exactly does that mean? I'd enjoy a bit of discussion about it here. I'm aware that sun beating down and dismemberment played a role, but the absolute inability to identify? Does this have precedent? j Well, use Tom Custer as an example. His head smashed in to the point where the only way they knew it as him, was due to a tattoo. He was not the only one who got a rough treatment post-death. If a face is gone and there is no ID on the body, identifying a corpse is pretty difficult. All the best, Nogy |
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Post by Yan Taylor on Jan 15, 2023 14:55:48 GMT -6
I do recal one man only being identified by his sock, the blokes who knew him couldnt find his body until they saw that one of the men still had a sock on.
Ian
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Jenny
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Posts: 200
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Post by Jenny on Jan 16, 2023 11:31:38 GMT -6
The sock soldier was Fred Hohmeyer of E Co. I do know about the horrendous condition of the bodies but it's amazing to me the time the Indians took to to put them in that state. There were a lot of Indians there to do it and the women may have done much of the mutilating, but it doesn't change the fact that this sort of thing takes time at each body - and obviously some took more time than others. There are many instances in Fred's book of "remains not identified," which I now take to mean the remains were all over the place and/or unrecognizable, rather than there were no remains to observe. I think that was the distinction I was getting at.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Jan 16, 2023 14:35:28 GMT -6
They went to town on the bodies, you are right Jenny, the women got stuck in as Lt. James Bradley said in his journals (the march of the montana column), these hags cut and hacked the dead soldiers.
I guess that the animals had their fill too, carrion was everywhere I guess.
Ian
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Jenny
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Posts: 200
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Post by Jenny on Jan 16, 2023 14:48:56 GMT -6
They went to town on the bodies, you are right Jenny, the women got stuck in as Lt. James Bradley said in his journals (the march of the montana column), these hags cut and hacked the dead soldiers. I guess that the animals had their fill too, carrion was everywhere I guess. Ian Do you know whether Bradley observed this? I've never seen reference to his witnessing this activity. Jenny |
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Post by tubman13 on Jan 16, 2023 16:51:16 GMT -6
Nobody witnessed the activity, the closest were 5 miles away under siege or hunkered down. And, the buzzards would have flown on his/Bradley's approach. Reporting the obvious is not common in govt.report writing.
Regards,
Tom
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Post by noggy on Jan 17, 2023 1:39:09 GMT -6
Nobody witnessed the activity, The Indians did. They count. There are several testimonies about women mutilating the dead; the story of the naked soldier who tried to play dead on LSH comes to mind, as does stories of the aftermath of Reno's charge. I have read that post-battle there were found rocks with leather strings tied around them or something, presumably used to crush the heads of the and wounded soldiers. Not a part of a warrior's gear, so probably used by someone maybe not as strong as a grown man in order to get enough strength behind a blow. All the best, Geir |
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Post by tubman13 on Jan 17, 2023 9:24:43 GMT -6
Noggy, all that you say is true, however I was answering a direct question. Steve Andrews and I have gotten to know Lynwood Tall Bull he has discussed the NA women on several occasions, very interesting subject.
As an aside on our first visit with Lynwood, a third member of our group asked him about the Cheyenne attack on Custer. The response stilled the conversation, as his response was very to the point. We never attacked Custer, he attacked us, twice, and he was lucky to live the first time! We only defended hearth and home.
Lynwood is a Vietnam veteran and college professor.
Regards,
Tom
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Post by Yan Taylor on Jan 17, 2023 9:49:09 GMT -6
linklinklinkA few links that may help in this topic. If you want to buy the Bradley book then it is available linkIan
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Jenny
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Posts: 200
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Post by Jenny on Jan 17, 2023 22:38:10 GMT -6
Noggy, all that you say is true, however I was answering a direct question. Steve Andrews and I have gotten to know Lynwood Tall Bull he has discussed the NA women on several occasions, very interesting subject. As an aside on our first visit with Lynwood, a third member of our group asked him about the Cheyenne attack on Custer. The response stilled the conversation, as his response was very to the point. We never attacked Custer, he attacked us, twice, and he was lucky to live the first time! We only defended hearth and home. Lynwood is a Vietnam veteran and college professor. Regards, Tom Do all of you hold seminars or meetings? I would love to know Lynwood and hear what he has to say. Jenny |
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Jenny
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Posts: 200
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Post by Jenny on Jan 17, 2023 22:42:56 GMT -6
Nobody witnessed the activity, the closest were 5 miles away under siege or hunkered down. And, the buzzards would have flown on his/Bradley's approach. Reporting the obvious is not common in govt.report writing. Regards, Tom I'm not sure what I meant when I asked that! Duh! I just ordered Bradley's journals, however. |
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Post by noggy on Jan 18, 2023 2:17:06 GMT -6
Noggy, all that you say is true, however I was answering a direct question. Steve Andrews and I have gotten to know Lynwood Tall Bull he has discussed the NA women on several occasions, very interesting subject. Yep, I read it a little fast, my bad. Ofc I know you aren't one of the "Only white accounts matter" folks  I have often wondered what today's Sioux and Cheyenne feel about how their ancestors acted against the Crow, Arikaras, Shoshone etc. They would hound these people relentlessly and take their hunting grounds. LBH was/is on Crow territory, if I recall correctly too. All the best, Noggy |
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