mark55
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Related to A.C.M. Pennington Jr..2nd US Artillery.
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Post by mark55 on Oct 23, 2022 1:12:41 GMT -6
Was wondering if there's any info on this subject?
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Post by noggy on Oct 23, 2022 10:04:36 GMT -6
Was wondering if there's any info on this subject? Well, depends on what you define as "info". There are a lot of claims about this, and this is what I had notes on when writing my articles on the battle (did not use all of these): There were one or more "half breeds" in the camp- -He Dog, Oglala. (Some soldiers said they were taunted in English from the Indian sides, and He Dog said a half-breed in his camp spoke good English) There were white men living with the Natives, so-called "Squaw men". -Frank Huston, former Confederate soldier who himself lived with a group of Natives at some point, and according to himself during the battle but in another camp not at the LBH. Private Thompson and another soldier (did not write down the name but probably easy to find) said they were fired upon by a Sioux and a white man. There are several claims from US soldiers that the body of a white man was found after the battle, together with som Natives. These are the notes I took on the matter, hope it was of use. I did just write about it in passing, since it is of no importance but still of some interest imo. I think there is a fair amount of more stuff about this, so if you browse the net you should be able to find more. All the best, Noggy |
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mark55
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Related to A.C.M. Pennington Jr..2nd US Artillery.
Posts: 7
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Post by mark55 on Oct 23, 2022 14:43:48 GMT -6
Thank you! I appreciate the response. I find it interesting....
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Post by noggy on Oct 24, 2022 2:41:41 GMT -6
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Post by Yan Taylor on Oct 24, 2022 4:01:18 GMT -6
I enjoy the old astonisher site, plenty of stuff to play with and some far out stuff too.
Ian
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Post by tubman13 on Oct 24, 2022 6:28:04 GMT -6
Noggy, excellent responses. I'm not a huge fan of Astonisher but that was to the point. I'm sure you are familiar with the Metis(A French word for mixed). Many were traders with the Sioux&Cheyenne. It is believed that they were the source for the numerous repeating rifles. They often spent time amongst the tribes. Even today we find many French names on the Reservations in SD. The name Metis was applied to mixed white and Indians from Newfoundland to the west coast of Canada. Many had been contract fur traders to years.
Regards,
Tom
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Post by noggy on Oct 24, 2022 8:23:54 GMT -6
Noggy, excellent responses. I'm not a huge fan of Astonisher but that was to the point. I'm sure you are familiar with the Metis(A French word for mixed). Many were traders with the Sioux&Cheyenne. It is believed that they were the source for the numerous repeating rifles. They often spent time amongst the tribes. Even today we find many French names on the Reservations in SD. The name Metis was applied to mixed white and Indians from Newfoundland to the west coast of Canada. Many had been contract fur traders to years. Regards, Tom They have some weird stuff but yes; their points here are things I know correlate (right eword?) with solid sources, since I have found the same in other places. Yep, I know of the Metis. Illegal arms trade on both sides of the border were probably a big business, for both Metis and white traders. I recall that one US magazine, when writing about the number of modern firearms available to the "hostiles", ironically said Winchester and so on should sue the Indians since they apparantly had started producing their own guns without permit from the patent holders. Geir |
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mark55
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Related to A.C.M. Pennington Jr..2nd US Artillery.
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Post by mark55 on Oct 24, 2022 12:36:56 GMT -6
Thank you....
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Post by tubman13 on Oct 24, 2022 15:18:13 GMT -6
Mark, your question was excellent, not often explored. Thank you. Much like the gap questions and what would have been different if Herendeen had been sent by Custer through to the Montana column/Terry.
Regards,
Tom
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Post by Yan Taylor on Oct 25, 2022 13:50:08 GMT -6
Yes, it is not a question you see asked, but I don't know of any who did.
Ian
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Post by tubman13 on Oct 25, 2022 17:09:20 GMT -6
Me for one, Ian. And, more importantly some of the members of the 7th Cavalry as Noggy alluded to. I hope this is not problematic to you. If so just ignore. Sorry. No proof. I guess, any "half breeds and squaw men", I don't care for those terms, wouldn't count.
Regards,
Tom
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mark55
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Related to A.C.M. Pennington Jr..2nd US Artillery.
Posts: 7
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Post by mark55 on Oct 25, 2022 23:43:05 GMT -6
Thank you all for the responses.
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Post by noggy on Oct 26, 2022 2:58:06 GMT -6
Speaking of this, we do know that so-called "half-breeds" actually fought against the US Army and settlers. A very fascinating person is George Bent (Like Huston a Confederate veteran btw), who took part in many Cheyenne war parties: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Bent Note this line: "Bent participated in 27 Cheyenne war parties, but never gave many details about his personal role in the Indian wars." Now, look at what Huston is quoted as saying in the Astonisher link previously posted: "Yet as a matter of fact, there were white men there; not with the Sioux, but with other nations present. Put yourself in their place. Would you, then or now, acknowledge it?" Much about this subject will never be disclosed, after all; who would walk around telling white people they used to shoot at blue coats and raid settlements? I have not gone in depth on the matter myself, but some say the reason Silas Soule was killed in 1865 was because of his testimonies against his fellow "soldiers" after Sand Creek, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silas_Soule So if you had actually fought on the "savages side", you'd probably be at risk. At the best, you'd not be very popular.... All the best, Noggy |
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Post by Yan Taylor on Oct 26, 2022 3:02:21 GMT -6
Me for one, Ian. And, more importantly some of the members of the 7th Cavalry as Noggy alluded to. I hope this is not problematic to you. If so just ignore. Sorry. No proof. I guess, any "half breeds and squaw men", I don't care for those terms, wouldn't count. Regards, Tom Hi Tom. What I meant was, I don't know of any white men fighting with the tribes at the BLBH. It's an area which I have never explored, so I am not in a position to give an answer. Ian |
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Post by tubman13 on Oct 26, 2022 6:10:20 GMT -6
Ian, I know pretty much what you meant and I absolutely have no proof whatsoever of whites or traders in that camp during the days of the battle. I do know that some traders were in the roamers camps though out the early Summer. I also know that there were more Arapahoe in the camp than commonly stated. They were married to Cheyenne and Sioux.
I guess you could call that trivia.
Regards,
Tom
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