|
|
Post by Yan Taylor on Sept 5, 2022 13:32:47 GMT -6
I think we all agree that should have kept the regiment together, but he didn't, he also felt confident that he and 350 men could tackle this village (combined Reno & GAC Bns).
Reno has mentioned that the village was mobilized against him before he even saw the place, thats why he sent two messengers.
The warriors went out to fight Reno without knowing how many soldiers faced them, so even if the regiment was in the valley, they still had a fight on their hands.
Ian
|
|
|
|
Post by noggy on Sept 5, 2022 14:33:49 GMT -6
Absolutely, but they would have been able to hold their ground, or at least keep intact. The warriors could never allow their families to linger in the valley with the 7th outside their doorstep, so a break-up and escape/implosion of the united village seems like a logical outcome by just sheer presence from the Cavalry. They did not need a big military clash to break the enemy's capacity to wage war at the time being (I ofc here don't take into consideration that in the long run the outcome was given, just talking about the Summer of 76). Scatter them, scatter/kill/capture ponnis, destroy tipis and stocks etc. All roads lead to ome etc.
Geir
|
|
|
|
Post by Yan Taylor on Sept 5, 2022 15:23:17 GMT -6
Reno had a bunch of pony herders with his battalion, they where on his left flank as they rode up the valley, their hopes of capturing a load of free horses was dashed by a herd of warriors.
For the whole regiment to get the horses, they would need to do a left hook, but still hold the attention of the blocking force.
Reno basically got smashed by the sioux, if all the regiment hit through the valley, the sioux would soon be joined by the Cheyenne.
Ian
|
|
|
|
Post by sirfrancis on Sept 5, 2022 22:35:50 GMT -6
Just to clarify the strength of the Indian force. Considering how easily they overcame Custer's 5 companies. I'm still mystified how Reno/Benteen's group managed to survive on the bluffs. I mean it wasn't exactly proper earthworks protecting them. Did perhaps half the Indians take off after the Custer fight and they lacked the numbers to crush Reno in the same way? Or was it simply that Reno/Benteen's mob were in one group, and Custer's were spread over at least 3 groups. Or both the above?
Francis
|
|
|
|
Post by noggy on Sept 6, 2022 2:36:34 GMT -6
For the whole regiment to get the horses, they would need to do a left hook, but still hold the attention of the blocking force. Ian They did not need to capture them, just chase them off into the prarie. 660 men could apporach the village as a menace and harry off the herd. Geir |
|
|
|
Post by noggy on Sept 6, 2022 2:54:49 GMT -6
Just to clarify the strength of the Indian force. Considering how easily they overcame Custer's 5 companies. I'm still mystified how Reno/Benteen's group managed to survive on the bluffs. I mean it wasn't exactly proper earthworks protecting them. Did perhaps half the Indians take off after the Custer fight and they lacked the numbers to crush Reno in the same way? Or was it simply that Reno/Benteen's mob were in one group, and Custer's were spread over at least 3 groups. Or both the above? Francis Well, there are several reasons and I'll probably forget some here. -They weren't a threat anymore. Contained and pinned down on Reno Hill, they could be picked off here and there, lose animals, and struggle with thirst. -During the night of 25-26th of June, large parts of the hill did get some "fortifications"/improvised breastworks, be it cases, dead animals etc. Still did not make Reno Hill a nice place to be, but better than nothing. With a larger degree of cover in place than on the 25th, and the range, it would also put a larger strain on the NAs ammunition. Compared to GAC's troops who were out in the open and could be reached also by arrow fire, he difference is huge. -I have not been to the field my self, but I believe apart from the side towards the river, there are hills but also fairly flat terrain around RH which would not be ideal to cross for an attacking side. Reno/Benteen had hundreds of rifles ready for a charge. Why would the Indians bother when they could just hold them in place and take pot-shots from safety? The NAs had no interest in mass charges into volley fire, that kind of sillyness was what the white guys liked to do during the ACW. To avoid losses while inflicting casualties on the enemy and at the same time keeping their families safe would be borderline the optimal fight for them, minus the lack of chances of getting som coups (well, poor old Long Road tried and it did not go well). There were some attempts to get really close to the soldiers, but they were driven off. Probably many more point could/will be made. Ramblings of a madman here, dreading the next 3 hours of meetings at my work, LBH is more fun to focus on. All the best, Noggy |
|
|
|
Post by tubman13 on Sept 6, 2022 4:45:49 GMT -6
Nice summation Noggy, regarding the Reno/Benteen site. I have been to that location 7 times. It's not the best location to defend, but there was about a 160 to 180 degree open area around the defense site that would have been a meat grinder for any attacker. Then you have the cliffs along the river, not an ideal area to be able to mass for an attack. There were areas where the Indians could get close to the lines to pop up and shoot. Particularly in the Benteen defense portion, there were several attempts to mass there, but they were driven off by charges.
Long range sniping by the Indians was effective for a while from Sharp Shooter Ridge, that was foiled by Sgt. Ryan and Captain French with their personal rifles.
I,like Ian, am not really into what ifs. But he, I,and others discussed, in the past, how the outcome could have been different had Custer's five companies followed Reno into the valley for the attack. This by no way would have guaranteed a victory. But, Benteen would certainly known where to come/be quick and to bring paks. There were areas to fall back on and defend if the attack failed.
The fact is Custer's tactical decisions, lack of scouting, not listening to his scouts, and no knowledge of the battle space doomed the day. Would that have changed with 4 more companies?
My first smart ass answer to you question brought up Gatling Guns and they would have been of little value either. Steve and I have been to Ford A and unless the ford has changed drastically they would have played hell getting it across, simply stated it would have been a nightmare. Only useful if the Indian were willing to attack a fixed location and that would have only happened once.
Riding along a ridge and waving your hat is nice, but not support. It may have rallied the Wolverines at Gettysburg, but worthless at the LBH.
This was not about watering horses, it was lack of a plan, the the lack of sharing that plan with your subordinates, and diluting your combat strength.
Earlier I called upon Colt to bring his thoughts to the game, he's a trained modern day cavalry officer. He has, in the past, dissected the mistakes and does better than I.
In the past we have had a fair number of officers participating here. Even Fred Wagner who certainly attempts put forth a fair and balanced presentations in his books was hard on Custer's performance. The fan boys had a hard time with the Custer critiques.
Regards,
Tom
|
|
|
|
Post by Yan Taylor on Sept 6, 2022 12:49:09 GMT -6
For the whole regiment to get the horses, they would need to do a left hook, but still hold the attention of the blocking force. Ian They did not need to capture them, just chase them off into the prarie. 660 men could apporach the village as a menace and harry off the herd. Geir I know he didn't need to capture them Geir, just scatter them or even shoot them (war is a bitch), it was the Indian pony herders who cut left to capture the horses to sell, once their job with the army was done for the day, they took off in search of bounty, so it was these I these herders I was talking about. Ian |
|
|
|
Post by Bruce Robert on Sept 6, 2022 16:12:13 GMT -6
What if's can be fun, but then don't we have to what if the other side? Or: If this; then that.
|
|
|
|
Post by sirfrancis on Sept 6, 2022 17:58:11 GMT -6
What if's can be fun, but then don't we have to what if the other side? Or: If this; then that. I love what ifs...coz you never run out of scenarios. As for the Indian what ifs... of course, but they will also happen by default in response to a Custer what if. Ie if Reno had the extra 4 2nd cav companies then Benteen joins him,that's 10 companies in the valley. By necessity the Indians can't leave Reno to go after Custer with anywhere near as a big a force. The Cheyennes and nearest other bands head off Custer...Interesting scenario...can Custer force the village or is the Indian blocking force still too strong? Timelines would help here. |
|
|
|
Post by tubman13 on Sept 6, 2022 18:03:34 GMT -6
Wagner's Strategy book covers that very well. If you have not checked it out, you should do so.
Regards,
Tom
|
|
|
|
Post by noggy on Sept 7, 2022 2:14:23 GMT -6
I,like Ian, am not really into what ifs. Well, neither am I...but... When I studied history, one of my professors had a three-part lecture on the value/usage of Counterfactual history. Not ofc as a subitute for "real" history, but as a tool and a mental exercise which can help us understand more about what happened by also looking at what could have happened, based ofc on plausible events based on reality, not far-fetched stuff like the US nuking NAs etc. Neither does this mean becomming Captain Hindsight (for those here who have watched South Park), but rather making you study and learn about other aspects of the event. One can actually learn a lot from "ifs". I remember when I had a class during my teacher-days, and challenged my students/pupils to find scenarios letting Germany win in the East during WW2 post Pearl Harbour. Many of them went in HARD and studied all kinds of things outside their textbooks. Dear God, those kids are still to this day probably more knowledagble about German WW2 industry, conscription and women's role in Nazi Germany's economy than most people! All the best, Geir |
|
|
|
Post by noggy on Sept 7, 2022 2:18:51 GMT -6
What if's can be fun, but then don't we have to what if the other side? Or: If this; then that. Agreed. Before my last computer comitted suicide, I had written down a longer post about scenarios with a full regimental/8 Company attack in the valley. It would be very different from the attack which took place, and therefor the NA respons would probably have differed too. All the best, Noggy |
|
|
|
Post by Yan Taylor on Sept 7, 2022 8:51:51 GMT -6
This battle is ripe for WHIFS, you can find fault with everything about it, starting from the missing breadbox to Custer not supporting Reno, Reno not staying in the timber to Benteen dawdling.
A lot of stuff seems strange to us, how the Custer battalion was scattered and the body markers etc, but the Indians had a big say it alot of this.
The battle basics where okay in theory, you attack that way and I will go round the back and kick them in the arse, but none of this was mentioned between any of the battalion commanders, plus the force involved was too small to be split again against such a large target which was willing to fight.
Ian
|
|
|
|
Post by montrose on Sept 8, 2022 10:20:11 GMT -6
There are two ways LTC Custer could have had the 4 additional companies.
1. First, he could have followed his own orders and supported the regimental attack in the LBH valley. This would let the main body support the advance guard when 900 Indians attacked along Reno's open flank to get Behind the Reno element cutting them off from Ford A. The regiment (-) would still have to retreat, falling back to Ford A, and allowing the rest of the regiment to consolidate at or behind Ford A.
2. Second, LTC Custer could wait until the trailing elements caught up, before launching his attack. On the bluffs he could clearly see the Indian attack surround and defeat the Reno element. He would have been in position to link up and support the Reno element when it reached the bluffs, then retreat towards the regiment and fight a defensive battle in Reno creek.
3. His decision was to abandon Reno and leave Benteen and McDougal behind. It is not an accident that he left 7 companies behind, it is a decision.
4. The other board assumes the Starship Enterprise is in orbit and teleports the trailing 7 companies forward, because they have no concept of time or space. Benteen and McDougal were where they were, when they were as a consequence of the orders they were given by LTC Custer. Their arrival times were completely predictable, especially since LTC Custer had just traveled this route and had perfect knowledge of when trailing units would catch up, By traveling the rough terrain on the bluffs vice the much easier route in the valley, add another 2 hours for the train to reach Battle Ridge. Fred Wagner went into vast detail on this topic in his book, recommend you read it.
|
|
