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Post by sirfrancis on Sept 2, 2022 4:27:50 GMT -6
So we all know that Custer was offered 4 companies from 2nd Cavalry but declined. What if he had accepted them? Would this have made a difference? What impact might this have had with the possible deployments? 1. Split them 2 more for Reno (5 companies) and 2 more for Custer (7 companies). (Delays Reno's retreat long enough for Benteen to arrive with his 3 companies in support. Allows Custer to forge ahead and gain the Non-Combatants) 2. Reno takes all 4 giving him 7 companies. (Allows Reno to maintain the attention of substantial Indians for much longer, and allows Benteen to either support Reno or move north to support Custer. 3. Custer keeps all 4 giving him 9 companies. (Gives Custer more options and perhaps a fighting chance to extricate his troops)
Would it have simply meant an even bigger disaster & more white headstones on LSH?
Or if the above scenarios are not feasible could it have provided the additional firepower to at least allow Custer to force a withdrawal?
cheers
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Post by noggy on Sept 2, 2022 4:42:28 GMT -6
So we all know that Custer was offered 4 companies from 2nd Cavalry but declined. What if he had accepted them? Would this have made a difference? What impact might this have had with the possible deployments? 1. Split them 2 more for Reno (5 companies) and 2 more for Custer (7 companies). (Delays Reno's retreat long enough for Benteen to arrive with his 3 companies in support. Allows Custer to forge ahead and gain the Non-Combatants) 2. Reno takes all 4 giving him 7 companies. (Allows Reno to maintain the attention of substantial Indians for much longer, and allows Benteen to either support Reno or move north to support Custer. 3. Custer keeps all 4 giving him 9 companies. (Gives Custer more options and perhaps a fighting chance to extricate his troops) Would it have simply meant an even bigger disaster & more white headstones on LSH? Or if the above scenarios are not feasible could it have provided the additional firepower to at least allow Custer to force a withdrawal? cheers Hi there. A fourth alternative here could have been to keep the Companies, who knew each other, united as an own "battalion"/strike force. Bradley could have led it like Reno and Benteen led their groups. The 4 companies, depending on how they were deployed and how they would have acted, could have ended up anywhere between changing the outcome of the battle to just adding new piles of markers to the field. Impossible to say, but the amount of possible scenarios are numerous here. All the best, Noggy
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Post by tubman13 on Sept 2, 2022 5:18:16 GMT -6
Wow, some interesting what ifs. I have some questions. Did Major BrisbIn offer 4 companies or just two? If Major Brisbin went with these companies who would be the senior Major? Would this combination have caused friction, in that Custer wanted this to be a 7th Cavalry/Custer victory? What no Gat. Guns?
Now to answer your question, opinion only, 4 in the valley would be my pick, I still would not enter the village. Either attempt to drive pony herd into the village causing confusion or using retreating skirmish lines to continue to draw warriors out of the village. Unfortunately this all requires hindsight.
Brings up the old saying, "if frogs had wings the wouldn't bump their asses on lily pads."
Regards, Tom
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Post by sirfrancis on Sept 2, 2022 5:27:50 GMT -6
Hey Noggy,
My gut feeling is that an additional 2 companies for either Reno or Custer would not have helped them enough considering how soundly they were trounced.
I think if Reno had those 4 companies he would have held out until Benteen came with his 3 giving a total of 10 companies. With those numbers I think Reno could have held the line, prevented being flanked on his left. This would have given Custer a chance to envelope the village, whether to go for the NCs or pincer the warriors.
If Custer had taken the 4 companies, Reno's plight would still have been the same, so Custer would have still had to deal with practically the entire Indian force alone. He may though have had the numbers to fight his way back to Reno.
Francis
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Post by sirfrancis on Sept 2, 2022 5:35:28 GMT -6
Wow, some interesting what ifs. I have some questions. Did Major BrisbIn offer 4 companies or just two? If Major Brisbin went with these companies who would be the senior Major? Would this combination have caused friction, in that Custer wanted this to be a 7th Cavalry/Custer victory? What no Gat. Guns? Now to answer your question, opinion only, 4 in the valley would be my pick, I still would not enter the village. Either attempt to drive pony herd into the village causing confusion or using retreating skirmish lines to continue to draw warriors out of the village. Unfortunately this all requires hindsight. Brings up the old saying, "if frogs had wings the wouldn't bump their asses on lily pads." Regards, Tom Hey Tom, I was typing Noggy's reply so didnt see yours. Well that makes me feel better that we agree on leaving the 4 with Reno. Well if anyone other than Reno was in command then it should but improve the situation one would think. Forgot about the Gatling guns. Not sure how mobile they were. Again probably better with Reno than Custer. That would have kept the Indian's head's down around Reno. cheers
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Post by herosrest on Sept 2, 2022 10:16:10 GMT -6
Lily Pad is a dear friend, i'll have you know. She does not kiss frogs.
The additional battalion would have left flanked Reno into the valley's western hills and herds beyond. That's how Custer operated.
Reno's open flank would not have been threatened and his dismounted action, sustained.
There would have been no movement of 7th Infantry alone down the Bighorn, or, taking a gamble, the Far West could have carried them - there were six companies (I think). No one knew at 22nd June whether the mouth of the Little Horn could be reached by steamer.
Rivalry between the two regiments would have counted for something and improved morale. Had Custers usual pratice been all in meat grinder, 12 companies down the valley delivers that and you know what, I don't. The Indians were not going to run from the fight. They outnumbered 12 companies 4 to 1. Blue gets wiped out in close quarter fighting. If they take and hold the tipi's inside a perimeter and destroy them, is a win for blue.
Custer didn't attack that way, so it would not happen, regardless the senior Major.
What I find interesting is Reno in command rather than Custer, and what Reno would do?
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Post by Yan Taylor on Sept 2, 2022 13:45:34 GMT -6
Only nine compamies of the 2nd cavalry took to the field and these were placed with two columns;
With Crook A Company 2nd Cavalry B Company 2nd Cavalry E Company 2nd Cavalry I Company 2nd Cavalry K Company 2nd Cavalry
With Gibbon F Company 2nd Cavalry G Company 2nd Cavalry H Company 2nd Cavalry L Company 2nd Cavalry
Missing 2nd Cavalry Companies; C, was garrisoning Ft. Stambaugh, WY. K, remained at Goose Creek, WY M, was stationed at Camp Brown, WY.
The four companies which could have joined Custer contained nearly 170 men.
Ian
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Post by tubman13 on Sept 3, 2022 17:05:26 GMT -6
Nicely done, Ian, that gives you the numbers that could have been with Custer or Reno. I thought the offer was 2 companies, but it was 4, it had been a long time since I had read it. Sorry. I think they would have had to all be in the valley to, maybe, impact the outcome. Thoughts? Colt need your help here.
Regards, Tom
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Post by Colt45 on Sept 4, 2022 7:00:07 GMT -6
Tom, IF Custer had the 4 extra companies, I would think the valley with Reno would be the logical place for them. That would have allowed the valley fight to last longer that it did, plus it should have been able to keep Reno from being flanked and forced into the timber.
However, if Custer continued being on the bluffs as he did, all the 4 in the valley would have done is prolong that action. Ultimately, the results would have been the same. An extra 170+/- men would not have changed the historical outcome. Custer would still have needed to follow Reno in the valley and swept thru the pony herd and into the village from the west.
Taking the 4 companies with Custer would have added to the body count if Custer continued with his historical tactics. There were just too many Indians for them to make a decisive difference. At best, Custer might have been able to pull off the withdrawal back toward Reno by having those extra 170 or so men.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Sept 4, 2022 12:33:37 GMT -6
I trend to keep out of "whifs", I will help out with info of course, but if it was true that Custer was offered these extra four companies and he refused them, then I can only imagine what he would think if he was ordered to take them by Terry, my guess is that he would keep them out of the fight unless he needed them.
But how could he achieve this, well he could leave them with the pack train, releasing B company for use in the field, he could even leave just one with the packs and three to do a scout similar to what Benteen did.
So if the 2nd cavalry men guarded the packs and did a scout, this would leave Custer with his full regiment to attack with.
I don't think Major Brisbin would appreciate this, after Custer declined the offer he said after the battle, Custer was a "insufferable ass".
Ian
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Post by noggy on Sept 4, 2022 12:58:45 GMT -6
Hey Noggy, My gut feeling is that an additional 2 companies for either Reno or Custer would not have helped them enough considering how soundly they were trounced. I think if Reno had those 4 companies he would have held out until Benteen came with his 3 giving a total of 10 companies. With those numbers I think Reno could have held the line, prevented being flanked on his left. This would have given Custer a chance to envelope the village, whether to go for the NCs or pincer the warriors. If Custer had taken the 4 companies, Reno's plight would still have been the same, so Custer would have still had to deal with practically the entire Indian force alone. He may though have had the numbers to fight his way back to Reno. Francis Well, all we can do is speculate. 4 Companies under an officer they knew would perhaps operate better as a unit. Maybe they could, like someone has mentioned, gone in direction of the ponni herd and otherwise threaten the village from another angle? Plus; I for one don't think it would be below Custer to keep units from another Regiment out of the fight, just so the 7th could get all the "glory". But again, just speculating here. Ifs and buts and Christmas etc. All the best, Noggy
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Post by Yan Taylor on Sept 5, 2022 1:41:05 GMT -6
Hi Geir, it's weird how GAC turned down the four 2nd cavalry companies and later left out of the main advance four of his own (B, K, H & D).
If forced to take the extra strength, would it be out of character for him to leave them out of the main event?
Personally and in hindsight of course, I would have taken them and used them in the advance.
Ian
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Post by noggy on Sept 5, 2022 3:05:17 GMT -6
Hi Geir, it's weird how GAC turned down the four 2nd cavalry companies and later left out of the main advance four of his own (B, K, H & D). If forced to take the extra strength, would it be out of character for him to leave them out of the main event? Personally and in hindsight of course, I would have taken them and used them in the advance. Ian Between leaving the depot and the 25th, I believe he started realizing the enemy force was larger than originally thought. Maybe he had second thoughts? I think he felt confident in the 7th's ability to secure a victory on it's own, and I don't think he was necessarily wrong. They could have won, if deployed better. In that sense, he did not "need" the 4 Companies. But yes, hindsight aside; I too would have brought more troops, and no, I don't think it would be outside the realm of possibilities to assume he could have tried to "leave out" anyone who could have stolen his thunder Geir
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Post by Yan Taylor on Sept 5, 2022 8:53:24 GMT -6
If he had took time and did some itel, then he may have deployed differently, but he still had the notion that they would scatter behind a cover screen if attacked. The regiment as a whole would have had a better chance of staving off assaults if repulsed, we saw how companies got chased off their lines by large bands of Indians and outflanked. pulling back by battalions to a decent fall back position with the packs and water would save them. These same Indians fought Crook and broke off their attacks late in the day, maybe they would do similar.
Ian
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Post by noggy on Sept 5, 2022 11:59:53 GMT -6
If he had took time and did some itel, then he may have deployed differently, but he still had the notion that they would scatter behind a cover screen if attacked. The regiment as a whole would have had a better chance of staving off assaults if repulsed, we saw how companies got chased off their lines by large bands of Indians and outflanked. pulling back by battalions to a decent fall back position with the packs and water would save them. These same Indians fought Crook and broke off their attacks late in the day, maybe they would do similar. Ian Even without intel, much could be achieved simply by keeping the 7th united. There are many outcomes the US could call a victory. keeping the Regiment together near the village would probably force it and the herd of ponnis to scatter, for instance. A unit Regiment would have not been rubbed out like individual companies. Geir
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