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Post by mac on Aug 27, 2022 23:44:14 GMT -6
I have posted this before but it bears repeating.
So, what have we got?
No archaeology to suggest any major action at Ford B, no reliable accounts of any approach to the river, two accounts that directly support the premise that Companies L, C, and I were moving away from LSH when they were engaged in battle at Calhoun Hill by warriors coming from the village and the south.
I am with Godfrey and Benteen; Custer did not go to Ford B. Sioux accounts The Sioux accounts of the approach to Ford B are all similar, saying Custer came down to the river, there were only a few warriors there but they managed to stop him, and he was forced back up to the high ground. The Sioux accounts are from men who were known to be in the valley fighting Reno and could not possibly see, or be near, Ford B at the time. It is well meaning hearsay.
This Sioux story is exactly the story the Cheyenne tell, and the Cheyenne place that event, unmistakably, at Ford D.
The big difference is that the Cheyenne accounts are full of detail; who was there, why they concealed rather than charged, where they concealed themselves and so on. This is what eyewitnesses know, not the basic sketchy hearsay of the Sioux accounts attributed to Ford B.
To quote Michno on White Cow Bull. He is full of bull!
Cheers
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Post by Yan Taylor on Aug 28, 2022 12:31:39 GMT -6
Hi Mac and both fords and the surrounding areas have virtually the same topography, thats why both tribal accounts have similar places included in their text.
Ian
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Post by herosrest on Aug 29, 2022 3:27:56 GMT -6
At the Northern Valley. How do I know Custer took his whole command to the Northern Valley? Indian Accounts In his account Wolf Tooth told John Stands in Timber that Custer did so!! Wolf Tooth was there!!! Drawing Battle Lines by Donahue Page 241 White Shield (Cheyenne): While I was dressing myself and telling my mother which way she should go, I looked back and saw soldiers in seven groups. One company could be seen a long way off the horses were pretty white.
Near me I could see only Roan Bear, Bobtail Horse, and one other man. On my side was a man named Mad Wolf (aka Lame White Man) who said “No one should charge yet the soldiers are too many. Just keep shooting at them.” When they got pretty close to the river the Gray Horse Company dismounted and all the others as far back as I could see dismounted also. It was not long before the Indians began to gather in large numbers where I was.Page 50 Cheyenne Memories of the Custer Fight As far back as I could see…..sounds like a lot more than 2 companies. The Long Forehead Interview Lame Deer Montana 1927 Page 140 Cheyenne Memories of the Custer Fight There are about thirty men now living on the Tongue River Indian Reservation who actually took part in the battle. All of the Cheyenne warriors in the big camp on the Little Big Horn were in the attack on Custer as Custer’s command was headed straight for the lower part of the camp occupied by the Cheyennes.This last quote is important as anyone who fought against Reno in the valley was not present in the Northern valley when Custer and his command arrived there. Cheyenne like Two Moons for example who fought Reno and all the Sioux that fought Reno only arrived back at the village in time to see Companies C, I, and L when they had returned from the valley and had reached Calhoun Hill. Only those who did not go to the Reno fight and were still in the big camp in the Cheyenne village like White Shield (dressing himself), actually saw Custer arrive in full force. This is a very important point! Archaeology The Northern Valley is full of archaeological traces from the river to highway 212. A much greater expanse than would be generated by just 2 Companies. The archaeology shows traces of a skirmish line out near the highway. Consistent with Henry Freeman’s observation that Custer had fought in the Northern valley at a point he labels 1 on his map. Drawing Battle Lines by Donahue Page 71 Cheers Thanks Ian As most who follow me are aware, I date the early action at Little Bighorn battlefield's given lower Ford D's, to 1926 and marches made by several companies of 7th Cavalry onto the battlefield, across those crossing places and cemetery terrain, at that time. This was immediately after the @burying the Hatchet' ceremony at GO, and the march was led by E.S. Godfrey along the old highway route from GO and swinging up to the Nat. Cemetery entrance. The ceremony, march and visit to the battlefield was photographed and filmed at the time, in front of crowds of tens of thousands and followed by a mock battle. The document I link here, link are pages of Capt. H.B. Freeman's diary at the pages of his map and description of visiting the battleground on 27th June, 1876; when he discovered Keogh's body. A cursury examination of the map shows that Number '1' has absolutely nothing whatever to do with the cardinal indicater on the sketch and in actuality and reality sits near to '2' as one might expect; and also is close to '7'. In interpretting '1' to be associated with the cardinal points indicater drawn by Freeman, Richard Fox quite obviously had a seriously bad bad hair day after finding his pipe blocked up with Kinnikinnick. Associating a No. 1 on Freeman's map with the Ford D scenarios is a mistake so flawed that one can only wonder in awe, at how it endures. Big Beaver returned to the Cheyenne camp with its pony herd and off they went to battle. He drew the route on his 1930 map. Across realbird ford where the Cheyenne camp ended. Across Realbird ford, along Greasy Grass ridge and up and over the west flank of Battle Ridge. White Shield was there with him. Check Big Beaver's map. Fox owes you all an apology but I wouldn't hold your breath. The Big Beaver Interview is in Cheyenne Memories, immediately after the Long Forehead Interview. BB was interviewed by Joe Blummer who ran the store at Garryowen and was the person who first began finding cartridges on the ridges east of the battleground. He also found them around and beyond the railway station and line in the valley.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Aug 29, 2022 4:27:03 GMT -6
Hi Hr. I actually have the Big Beaver account right in front of me (drawing battle lines by Mick Donahue), it gives the view from a teenager who missed the intial fights and joins the battle when E Company held cemetery ridge, so there is no mention of any previous actions at any ford apart from himself crossing at ford B. He also says that he was with the pony herd when the fighting began, then he saw the valley fight, so he had no idea of what was going on up north. So I can't take much of his account seriously as it is a miss mash of what he saw and what he was told. Enjoy the bank holiday Ian
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Post by herosrest on Aug 29, 2022 5:36:59 GMT -6
Hi Ian. good to talk. White Shield was fishing and returned to the camp. Big Beaver brought in the pony herd. Honours even there with both returning after the initial response to the valley strike. Bruce Brown has the 1928 Blummer & Marquis interview up on Astonisher, I quote, ' As the Cheyenne camp was the one on the north or lower end of the great Indian camp, this made them the nearest to the [Custer] battleground. He says all the Indians from this end of the camp went north along the river, thence to the right or east, and came up towards Custer from the north side. When he got there, he left his pony back some distance and crawled up the coulee just north and a little to the east of where the present monument is.Unfortunately, this an account which is extremely misleading on a number of important fronts which is the problemo long understood with them. Let me explain - the account tells people what they 'want' to hear and has ford D written large all over it. Unfortunately, that is not what Big Beaver was saying and this becomes clear once the map he drew in 1930, is viewed in conjuction with the written interview. It's a rare case of actually knowing where relevant terrain is and what he did. His comment 'all the Indians from this end of the camp went north along the river, thence to the right or east, and came up towards Custer from the north side.' speaks for itself and it speaks Realbird - Greasy Grass ridge. All the Indians from that end of the camp. That end of the camp ended opposite the Deep Coulee/Medicine tail Coulee divide. From Grinnel and White Shield we know specifically that the ford B Custer was approaching before halting and dismounting the troops, was Realbird. 'Woa chaps......... It's bigger than BIG. Hang on a minute... it's gone very quiet up the valley................. Oh no....................... So, right - what did you make of the fox discrepency where his N0. 1 is on Pluto, whilst Freeman indicated fighting on the battlefield? Many years ago, I realised the lower fords idea was a bit woolen and wondered why. These days I know. The Cheyennes were across from the divide of Deep Coulee and MTC with plenty of evidence to prove it. So, when Two Moon got back from Reno and saw the soldiers across the river, those soldiers were on or inside his horizon of view. That horizon is Greasy Grass Hill looking north and east, along NC ridge tp Luce and the bluffs and high ground terminating MTC. Since that's the view - that's where the soldiers were. When TM got back from his attempt to lift Reno's hair. Interestingly, assuming Freeman saw the 28 dead, his map throws new light on the location of that ravine. Of course it didn't get published until 1977 and the whole World was wanting to dig up Deep Ravine. Watson's just telling me, 'Godfrey did it!.....' Hmmm..... So, for me, the question was why the units on that terrain went north after Reno's Retreat....... Wow.......... The superintendent found evidence of the fighting up on Luce and NC in 1947, I think it was.... Here ya go Link 1link 2The files aren't with LBH, so didn't end up in Arizona. Luce's notes on the Luce Ridge finds (or East Ridge or whatever its called) indicated 15 men in skirmish shooting off three rounds. So, with horseholders and an Officer, that's a repeat of the mission handed to Lt. Braden on August 11, 1873; in the fight opposite the mouth of the Bighorn. One or two companies nearer the river got cutoff by Reno's retreat and fell back to the north. Panic..... what shall we do, Sir! I can tell you how that unfolded. The Indian force building up on Weir's Peak waiting to see what happened next, were detected by Custer's command. The companies nearer the river were called back from it and the Indians in the valley crossed close behind and closed. The companies dismounted into irregular skirmish lines (moving squares with the horses at centre (center) Two Moon started charging the skirmish lines... by his accounts it took three charges to get at the horse holders. This is the cavalry walking out engaging as they go, just as Custer did on August 4th, 1873.
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Post by herosrest on Aug 29, 2022 6:51:43 GMT -6
HorizonThere are re-enactment images here, some showing the Greasy Grass Hill backdrop which make it clear how any unit there would be cut off from a return on the backtrail by Indian fighters returning up the valley from Garryowen. The troops pulled back up Deep Coulee and the hostile forces swarmed across from the valley and the force gathered on Weir's Peak commited and closed. Game on. Battlefield history. They crossed the terrain in echelon. Very professional.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Aug 29, 2022 13:02:47 GMT -6
Always good to talk with you too HR, as long as its not modern weaponry, I am stuck in the period from 1935 to 1955, which is where my interests lie.
See here again we have a conflict of data;
I to Luce L to Butler C bumps over to GGH (there are Indian accounts which state that one company came off the (battle) ridge and moved down to what is now known as FFR) E and F portion with HQ, leave river fords to GGH
Its funny that Wolftooth missed all of this, he saw the column move off the ridges right through deep coulee and over calhoun hill, keeping behind the ridge line of battle ridge.
Ian
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Post by herosrest on Aug 29, 2022 16:07:32 GMT -6
Hi, I hope you had a good day and the virus is behind you. we don't know what Wolftooth saw but rather what John Stands in Timber remembered WT told him, which is second hand by any standards and from the quoted source I offer, Jesse Vaughn, that 50 years after JSiT heard it and 80 years after the event. WT told Timber about events 30 years after the battle and Timber related it to Vaughn and Rickey 80 years after the battle. Lame White Man was Timber's grandfather and so was Wolftooth. What was your grandfather up to 80 years ago? Pretty much anyway you get a handle on the woodpeckers interdicting Custer's command (Wolftooth/Bigfoot band) they were east of the Luce NC terrain and headed north in some fashion. The trail of artifacts along that line of march tells they were fended off and the Timber account says this. At least 15 army guns on East or Luce Ridge drove them away to regroup and go again. That's from Timber and that's SoP. So WT didn't know squat overall and neither did anyone else. WT most certainly had not the slightest clue which officers, companies or wing of what regiment he was up against or how many of them were there. The order of the companies is a game pretty much everyone does and I assume, that Charles Roe had a reasonable idea how US Cavalry operated, knew the terrain as well as anyone having been there at the beginning of May 1876 and down Tulloch Ck. on a recon; had officer's of 7th Cavalry to discuss things with, and interviewed Curley about it with a capable interpretter for the job - LaForge. Cavalry opinion is worthwhile. That of 2nd Cavalry is preferable to 7th Cav. Roe was there with Terry, Gibbon and Brisbin. He interviewed Curley a few years down the road with a reliable interpretter. His opinion is worthwhile and is as good as and actually better than that of JSiT, when weighed. Timber said one thing, Roe another. Who to believe? Timber talked to Wolftooth. Roe talked to Curley.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Aug 30, 2022 7:40:22 GMT -6
Well WT did leave us with a map HR. There is a building drawn on that map, the footings still remain and where visited by friends on this board. The footings are near ford D and the map shows the soldiers moving past this building before being forced back.
I don't know what you have against WT, take my father for instance, he was a Normandy vet and landed on Juno beach. Now if he was alive and took my son to Juno beach, he could show him things and talk him through the events he remembered, all in English with no need to fatten out the story with embelishments. But if a French news paper asked him through an interpriter to tell his story, I would put money on it turning up in the local rag, rather different.
Even Curleys friends, the crows, called him a liar, didn't they wash their hands with him after the battle?
Ian
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Post by herosrest on May 8, 2023 7:55:48 GMT -6
HorizonThere are re-enactment images here, some showing the Greasy Grass Hill backdrop which make it clear how any unit there would be cut off from a return on the backtrail by Indian fighters returning up the valley from Garryowen. The troops pulled back up Deep Coulee and the hostile forces swarmed across from the valley and the force gathered on Weir's Peak commited and closed. Game on. Battlefield history. They crossed the terrain in echelon. Very professional. Echelon formation - link
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