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Post by Yan Taylor on Jul 30, 2022 13:43:59 GMT -6
Yes exactly.
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Post by tubman13 on Jul 30, 2022 18:24:28 GMT -6
Ian, excellent response. You can even ask Joseph Marshall III. He currently resides on the Rosebud Reservation. I did. He was raised in a traditional family, speaking Sioux, crafting bows and arrows in the traditional fashion, he has written books, taught college, been in movies, and knows where the numerous lever actions and ammo came from. It would do HR and others to look at other than the traditional blather.That is how Steve and I have spent the last several years.
I have enjoyed Mac's position as well as yours. Neither HR's or our's can be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt, but one must feel confident due to evidence presented in their position. Custer while suffering tunnel vision and wishing to reclaim his position after being banished from his postion by the President, was no fool he would not have left that much combat power in the rear.
Regards, Tom PS It is past your bedtime on your beautiful Island. Wake up in the morning blow a kiss across the Irish sea, to Wild, so we can have a real donnybrook with this discussion.
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Post by tubman13 on Jul 30, 2022 18:32:52 GMT -6
Ian, also Colt gives a great perspective from a modern and 19th century military perspective. Regards, Tom
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Post by herosrest on Jul 31, 2022 3:15:52 GMT -6
I realise there be considerable fun and challenge in adjusting the tactical fight to see what can be seen and as long as this is understod as conceptual, what ifs; then fine. That is a fine line between what was and what is going to be and be different.
Numerous interviews with participants exist with a handful being definitive such that modern study can ground itself in factual reality. White Shield told G.B. Grinnell where the ford was, and Grinnell published this in 1915. This was what we and know as Ford B. It really is that simple.
The troops were headed straight for the ford about half a mile above the battlefield and White Shield and the other Cheyennes believed that Custer was about to cross the river and get into the camp. The troops were getting near them, but suddenly before the troops reached the river the gray-horse company halted and dismounted, and all who were following them, as far as could be seen, also stopped and dismounted.
No ford D recon, approach or attack during the brief battle. Other accounts tell of soldiers crossing the river lower down at The end of the fighting - in evade and escape. They didn't make it.
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Post by herosrest on Jul 31, 2022 3:30:20 GMT -6
I link Grinnell's book, 'The Fighting Cheyennes' which i'm sure all serious students have read many times. It will present an official report of an action in Kansas, during which Two Moons father was killed. link. On that occaision, the Cheyenne had been braved up by one 'Bullet Proof', who convinced that the soldier's guns would not work. That might have been the case but Sumner ordered a sabre charge...... Cavalry using sabres........... whatever next! In terms of development of the fight, no one doubts fighting took place on Calhoun Hill. Calhoun Hill is 1,000 yards from Monument Hill. They are of equal height. One cannot be defended without holding the other. Hill viewWhilst fighting was taking place at Calhoun Hill, White Shield was further down river fighting soldiers and his brother, Yellow Nose, captured a cavalry flag way off to the south east. It is useful, nee important, to give regard to the record left by those who were there. White Shield gave his account to Grinnell. Wolf Tooth gave his to John Stands in Timber. John Stands in Timber gave wolf Tooth's account to Don Rickey and Jesse Vaughn in 1956 (80 years after the event) and having failed to give that information to T.B. Marquis in the 1920's, 30 years before giving it to Rickey and Vaughn. Marquis interviewed the people John Stands in Timber reprented 30 years later. Marquis knew Wolf Tooth. Magic circle. T.B. Marquis's 'Author's statement' in his Wooden Leg book is a worthwhile read. The entire book is worthwhile and particularly for locating the Cheyenne camp when Custer attacked it. I covered this elsewhere several times but suffice is to say that E.S. Curtis's investigation of the battle 1905-1908, got the location accurately spot-on. Just as CrazyHorse hooking four miles down the valley to sweep across the lower fords and collide with cavalry in that area - didn't happen; so neither did Custer making a jaunt a further three miles to get into the valley from the lower fords and ride three miles back up it to capture the camp and destroy the tipis, food and property. It didn't happen. There is a similar reality with Two Moons accounts of the fighting. His first successful attack was at Finley Finkle.
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Post by tubman13 on Jul 31, 2022 4:18:26 GMT -6
Read it, great book and great story. The Cheyenne end up running. Another great later day book is "Dog Soldier Justice", by Jeff Broome. Not about LBH, rather more about 7 or 8 years earlier.
Regards, Tom
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Post by Yan Taylor on Jul 31, 2022 13:06:00 GMT -6
PS It is past your bedtime on your beautiful Island. Wake up in the morning blow a kiss across the Irish sea, to Wild, so we can have a real donnybrook with this discussion. Well Tom, that would open up a right can of worms It I remember correctly, the Irish fellow has always stood by his safe but narrowed viewed theory of Custer getting defeated around the ford B area, the rest was a rout all the way to LSH with no mention about the northern fords. Now I can't 100% refute that but I can't be bothered debating with someone with a view like that either. Anyway, the English ladies have just beated the German girls 2-1 in the final of the Euro cup tournament link in a great final full of drama. Ian
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Post by tubman13 on Jul 31, 2022 14:46:57 GMT -6
Thanks for the link, it's not available in my area, do enjoy women's soccer. Have a great night !
Regards, Tom
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Post by Yan Taylor on Aug 2, 2022 1:34:04 GMT -6
Sorry about the link Tom, BBC should allow for overseas visitors on its links, they are a global brand.
Ian
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Post by herosrest on Aug 2, 2022 3:49:03 GMT -6
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Post by mac on Aug 3, 2022 19:34:55 GMT -6
A Sequence for LSH
Wolf Tooth gives us information about Custer’s journey to the Northern Valley. He is less informative about the action there, but he does tell us that warriors at some time or times occupied the ridge above the Northern Valley (where the monument now stands). He also tells us that the last to enter the fight (at least from his vantage point) were the suicide boys and that this was an “orchestrated” event. Red Hawk tells us that 3 divisions of soldiers came down the ridge from Last Stand Hill to Calhoun Hill and he describes the destruction of those soldiers. Red Hawk says that when he reached Last Stand Hill the warriors were finishing off that fight but that there were still soldiers alive “below”; I take that to be a reference to Cemetery Ridge or perhaps Deep Ravine. Big Beaver says he was east of Last Stand Hill and he saw the warriors there run up the hill and that at the time the only soldiers opposing were lying down or sitting down. He adds that about 15 soldiers ran over the hill and down to where the other soldiers were still fighting (I take this place to be Cemetery Ridge).
Foolish Elk Walter Camp on Sept. 22, 1908 and translated by Louis Roubideaux and Shaw
Personally, he was with the Indians to the east, or Custer's right. Custer charged the Indians twice ... but could not drive them away, and then the battle became furious. It did not appear to him that a stand was made by Custer's men anywhere except at the monument. He was in the gully and saw the soldiers killed on the side hill as they "marched" toward the high ground at end of ridge. They made no stand here, but all were going toward the high ground at end of ridge.... The gray horses went up in a body; then came bay horses and men on foot all together. The men on the horses did not stop to fight, but went ahead as fast as they could go. The men on foot, however, were shooting as they passed along. When the horses got to the top of the ridge the gray ones and bays became mingled, and the soldiers with them were all in confusion.
The sequence
Custer starts the retreat from the Northern Valley immediately (Foolish Elk “men on horses did not stop…”) After Company I have left and are following after Companies L and C (Foolish Elk saw Company I killed “on the side hill”) the warriors began firing into the men on Last Stand Hill (Custer charged the Indians twice ... but could not drive them away Foolish Elk) Company F were smashed by the attack and eventually the warriors were able to charge over them up Last Stand Hill with slight resistance (Big Beaver) from wounded still lying or sitting on the slope (bodies shown in Moylan Map).
Some men from Company F and HQ made a retreat over Last Stand Hill and down to the west. Around this time the suicide boys and others hit the Cemetery Ridge position (Wolf Tooth) and those soldiers that are still able to move, retreat down towards Deep Ravine creating the trail known as the South Skirmish Line. As the accounts say this final phase of the action is swift.
This sequence makes sense of the retreat by Company E and a few “others” down the so called South Skirmish Line. Last Stand Hill was not an option as it had already fallen. These men in the Ravine were the last to be killed. Cheers
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Post by shan on Aug 4, 2022 11:29:46 GMT -6
mac,
maybe its me, but my reading of Foolish Elk's account says something differnt. That said, we can agree on a few basic points. He was to the east of the monument, and that he's clear that Custer did not appear to him to make any stand anywhere except the monument.
As for the rest, his descrition of mounted men heading up to high ground, sounds to me like men heading towards LSH from Calhoun. My remembrance of being on the battlefield is that LSH is a little higher than Calhoun, not much, but then it was higher still at the time of the battle, maybe by as much as several feet, the ground having been lowered and levelled off since the battle. I would also add that his description of the men on foot trying to follow the mounted men to higher ground sounds very like the men from I company trying to reach LSH after I companys postion collapsed. He says he was in a gully to the east when he saw the men killed on the side of the hill ~ which is where the bulk of the gravestones lie between Calhoun and LSH, as they marched towards the high ground at the end of the ridge. The word marched indicates to me that he's talking about men on foot rather than mounted me.
As with almost all Indian testimony, we have to allow for mistakes in translation, plus compression, probably on the part of the translators, which has left most of us straching our heads ever since.
Still, keep up the good work,
Shan
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Post by herosrest on Aug 4, 2022 12:26:19 GMT -6
I'm not sure of the how and why, you are framing the sequence, but will offer some matters for consideration in being easily available to research. The first point is that Wolf Tooth did not divulge the information you work with. This came from John Stands in Timber, born in 1882. He was the step-grandson of Wolf Tooth and great-nephew of Tall Bull. JSiT's accounts of the battle to Margot Liberty, Don Rickey & Jesse Vaughn, and Peter Powell; are set down nowhere else and all the participants who contributed to Timber's account had passed away considerably before. Stands in Timber's records notes and possibly artifacts passed Father Peter Powell, upon death. Born in 1928, Powell was founder and first director of St. Augustine's Center for American Indians in Chicago. He is an Honorary Chief of the Northern Cheyenne People and since 1972, has been a Research Associate of The D'Arcy McNickle Center for American Indian History, The Newberry Library, Chicago. JSiT was born 6 years after the battle and probably 10 years old or more before he understood anything he was told by participants other than there was war and battles. I feel this is reasonable and accurate. John Stands in Timber knew Dr. T.B. Marquis who wrote several books on the battle after gaining the stories of numerous Cheyenne participants and was told nothing of anything at the lower fords or Wiley's bends, by them or JSiT, whom he knew. Margot Liberty worked with Timber on the Cheyenne voice and memories books. Marquis photographed Stands in Timber and his family which was around the time of the 50th anniversary of the battle. Timber's wife and one of his children are shown. His wife was 15 years younger, with their daughter born in 1920, and a son the following year who survived until DEc 16, 1934. Big Beaver guided Joe Blummer over the battlefield in 1928, spending three days describing events which he saw. I link a picture from Bruce Brown's site and topic about him link. J.A. Blummer ran the Old Store immediately below the western Garryowen Riverloop bend, in Little Bighorn valley and had been finding cartridge shells on ridges east of the river along what are now called Luce and Nye-Cartwright ridges. In 1930, Big Beaver drew a map of the battle which showed his movements about the valley and up to the battleground using Ford B (RealBird) and west along greasy Grass ridge to Monument Hill. The map can be downloaded in PDF from the 'Friends' website. Whilst the account given to Blummer by Big Beaver can be understood to corroborate a movement to lower fords (although it does not say that) the later map leaves entirely no doubt about his route into the fight. There is a photograph of JSIt on the Friends website showing Timber standing at the rock cairn marking the place where Lame White Man fell, which is considerably nearer the river than the NPS marker by the road. I mentoned Joe Blummer finding battle relics east of Medicine Tail coulee on ridges and others subsequently did same, including James Willert and Edward S. Luce who photographed the terrain where he made finds in the 1940's. I link to them Luce cartridge find sites. I would hope your overall scheme can relate this information to your sequence for LSH. A considerable number of battle relics were discovered along the ridges east of Medicine Tail and Deep Coulee, indicating that firing, nee fighting took place. Some horse remains and soldirs body were discovered long, long after the battle by a chap named Bethune. Frank Bethune, I think. I hope some of this stuff can help frame the LSH fight a little better. It's a pity that we cannot ask Maj. Cutter who lived in a ranche in the valley across from the mouth of Deep Ravine, what was at Sioux Ford in 1879, when he lived there. Or maybe we can. You know, a little later with the Crow tribe taking allotments and settling the valley, followed by W.A. Groves mapping and irrigating the valley; Custer's scout Curley, lived at exactly the same place in a log hut in the valley, opposite the mouth of Deep Ravine. He was there until....... 1923. Regards
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Post by noggy on Aug 9, 2022 7:01:01 GMT -6
Thank you to Mac for a fine post/fine posts. I feel that what I wrote previously, about interpretation, is shown here. It seems to me that most people have access to the same material, more or less. And then it is much about interpretation. Even with archaeology and testimonies. One example here is Michno in Lakota Noon. He uses mostly NA testimonies (including testimonies from the same NAs Mac uses), but to describe a South-North/»traditional» flow of battle. Another example is Fox's book «Archaeology, History and Custer's Last Battle» which has 19 pages or something on Calhoun Hill alone. That chapter as the rest of the book is based on the same «flow of battle» as Michno. Both had access to Red Hawk, JSIT etc. So here we have two books focusing on the battle with each their main focuses, namely NA stories and archaeology. Both authors may have changed their minds regarding this, I have no idea. But, this is how they used/saw the material, Mac and others do it differently. Personally, I think that's great. Speaking of interpretations, I'm reminded of something Michno wrote about archaeological findings in LM (NB: «E» here is a point on a relics map, not the E Company): «The great number of cartridges found at «E», along Nye-Cartwright and Luce Ridges, show conclusively that the cavalry moved northwest along these crests, returning the Indians' fire.» It would have been interesting to see how he would have responded if someone said it conclusively showed movement the other way, but I guess that was not how he interpreted the findings All the best, Noggy
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Post by herosrest on Aug 9, 2022 7:34:17 GMT -6
Regards 'N'. The flows of events are most certainly open to various flavours of doom and intent. I have just spent an hour discussing this aspect of the battle with the well known and respected expert, Stewart Brewing. It's 'more' than likely the fight moved north from the south across MTC (in fact this is a rare fact because it happened). There is sufficient evidence that the Ford B areas were approached by cavalry. There is sufficient evidence those troops manouvered up Deep Coulee and its west ridge of hills. That happened beyond any doubt and a retrogade theory 'has' to recognise it and cater for it. That's my idea on it and I have nailed it to the post immediately above the line I drew in the sand. No one actually knows and the most respected authors change their minds along the way because study is made difficult - enough of that though. As I mentioned earlier, if Peter Wall studied the battle lifelong and wrote it up as the north south, i'd laugh and dismiss it out of hand. I could go into why but those who believe in the retrograde, believe in it or enjoy developing. The battle is alive and well and new material arriving all the time as 'everything' is digitised and monetised. Everything from 200 years ago, onwards, is finding its way onto the web. It's remarkable and so is study of the battle but - it is not history. That is a very different banana skin. Regards all.
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