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Post by mac on Jul 23, 2022 20:09:05 GMT -6
Custer’s Retreat from the Northern Valley (Ford D)I thought I should post this here for those interested in how I feel the battle evolved. Please note I am only addressing the portion of the battle after Custer left Calhoun Hill and moved North. The “North South Theory” is really a working title from the board where I, and many others, have been working on an analysis of this part of the Little Big Horn Battle. The above title is more appropriate. I will probably never make it into a book as frankly the market is too small. To understand what happened at the Little Big Horn one must concentrate on modern archaeology and Indian accounts. The archaeology is simply fact. The Indian accounts must be analyzed carefully, as most researchers already know. Part One Calhoun HillThe Archaeology This tells us that Calhoun formed at least two skirmish lines lower on the hill facing South probably to address the Indians around “Henryville”. If Calhoun had been simply parked on top of Calhoun Hill with companies C and I in attendance then there would be no reason to take up these positions. Yet the archaeological fact is that he did; therefore I conclude that the theory that Companies C, I, and L were left in place on Calhoun Hill is wrong. Indian Accounts.Red Hawk (Oglala) had returned from Reno fight and was watching the action from opposite Calhoun Hill (Battle Ridge). Red Hawk interview recorded by Nicholas Ruleau November 20 1906 Pine Ridge. (also present and contributing Shot in the Face, Big Road, Iron Bull all present at Little Big Horn) Source Drawing Battle Lines M N Donahue Page 170
These later soldiers were coming down on the ridge in three divisions. They did not come down to the river. The first division came to a point about half a mile or three quarters of a mile from the river.
The Indians fell back down the river bottom through the village and crossed the Little Big Horn at the only crossing and went up the high hill in the direction of Reno and from there assailed the leading division.
Crazy Horse and Gall and Knife Chief were haranguing the Indians to get together so that they could make another charge on the soldiers. He (Red Hawk) says when the Indians all got together they went down from this point, or hill and met the first division of these soldiers and they fought this back to the second division; from there they drove the two divisions back to the first (third?) division.
All the time the soldiers fought bravely; he adds that he never saw soldiers fight as bravely as they did. He says that several Indians were killed now, but no soldiers were killed. The officers tried their utmost to keep the soldiers together at this point, but the horses were unmanageable; they would rear up and fall backwards on their riders; some would get away.
The Indians forced the soldiers back to where the first stand was made on Calhoun Hill and the ridge running from there towards the river.
At this point the soldiers stood in line and made a very good fight. This tells us where Gall was, opposite Calhoun Hill. What did Gall see and do? Gall and three other Indians were watching the same soldiers from a high point on the eastern side of the river. Well out in front were two soldiers. Ten years later, Gall identified them as Custer and his orderly, but more probably it was not. This man he called Custer was in no hurry, Gall said. Off to Gall’s right, on one of the bluffs upriver, some Indians came into sight as Custer approached. Feather Earring, a Minneconjou, said Indians were just then coming up from the south on that side of the river “in great numbers.” When Custer saw them, Gall said, “his pace became slower and his actions more cautious, and finally he paused altogether to await the coming up of his command. This was the nearest point any of Custer’s party ever got to the river.” At that point, Gall went on, Custer “began to suspect he was in a bad scrape. From that time on Custer acted on the defensive.” Others, including Iron Hawk and Feather Earring, confirmed that Custer and his men got no closer to the river than that—several hundred yards back up the coulee. Most of the soldiers were still farther back up the hill.www.smithsonianmag.com/history/how-the-battle-of-little-bighorn-was-won-63880188/The above accounts tell us that Companies C, I, and L were seen by Red Hawk moving along the back of Battle Ridge (note that geographically this movement is towards the river). Company L saw Gall and the other Indians returning from the Reno fight and stopped to confront them. Thus, we understand the skirmish lines lower on the slope of Calhoun Hill. Red Hawk gives a perfect discussion of the compression of the three companies in the ensuing battle and their ultimate destruction. Next installment will be devoted to why I know all of Custer’s command went with him to the region often called Ford D. I now reference it as the Northern Valley. Cheers
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Post by Yan Taylor on Jul 24, 2022 4:39:18 GMT -6
Love it Mac, I enjoyed the ride on that “North South Theory” on the blue board. Great to see the work up for everyone to see.
Ian
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Post by mac on Jul 26, 2022 1:38:48 GMT -6
At the Northern Valley.
How do I know Custer took his whole command to the Northern Valley?
Indian Accounts
In his account Wolf Tooth told John Stands in Timber that Custer did so!! Wolf Tooth was there!!! Drawing Battle Lines by Donahue Page 241
White Shield (Cheyenne):
While I was dressing myself and telling my mother which way she should go, I looked back and saw soldiers in seven groups. One company could be seen a long way off the horses were pretty white.
Near me I could see only Roan Bear, Bobtail Horse, and one other man. On my side was a man named Mad Wolf (aka Lame White Man) who said “No one should charge yet the soldiers are too many. Just keep shooting at them.” When they got pretty close to the river the Gray Horse Company dismounted and all the others as far back as I could see dismounted also. It was not long before the Indians began to gather in large numbers where I was. Page 50 Cheyenne Memories of the Custer Fight
As far back as I could see…..sounds like a lot more than 2 companies.
The Long Forehead Interview Lame Deer Montana 1927 Page 140 Cheyenne Memories of the Custer Fight
There are about thirty men now living on the Tongue River Indian Reservation who actually took part in the battle. All of the Cheyenne warriors in the big camp on the Little Big Horn were in the attack on Custer as Custer’s command was headed straight for the lower part of the camp occupied by the Cheyennes.
This last quote is important as anyone who fought against Reno in the valley was not present in the Northern valley when Custer and his command arrived there. Cheyenne like Two Moons for example who fought Reno and all the Sioux that fought Reno only arrived back at the village in time to see Companies C, I, and L when they had returned from the valley and had reached Calhoun Hill.
Only those who did not go to the Reno fight and were still in the big camp in the Cheyenne village like White Shield (dressing himself), actually saw Custer arrive in full force. This is a very important point!
Archaeology
The Northern Valley is full of archaeological traces from the river to highway 212. A much greater expanse than would be generated by just 2 Companies.
The archaeology shows traces of a skirmish line out near the highway. Consistent with Henry Freeman’s observation that Custer had fought in the Northern valley at a point he labels 1 on his map. Drawing Battle Lines by Donahue Page 71 Cheers Thanks Ian
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Post by tubman13 on Jul 26, 2022 3:03:42 GMT -6
Mac, The Northern Valley often alluded to the Northern Flats across the river from the wikiups (400ish),in the old entrance to the Park passed through this area. The wikiups were north of the Cheyenne circle.
The Cheyenne also mentioned troops towards the current Crow reservation. You are on a bit of a roll my man.
Regards, Tom
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Post by dave on Jul 26, 2022 15:55:53 GMT -6
Mac Very well researched, written and presented. I really enjoyed your postings and believe them to be very interesting and provoking. I need to reread many accounts and books to have a more intelligent opinion about your content. Regards Dave
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Post by mac on Jul 27, 2022 22:28:47 GMT -6
In the Valley. The valley archaeology shows the large extent of the fighting. The problem for Custer was that the Indian forces were being quickly reinforced by fighters from the village, mainly Cheyenne. These warriors were able to use the west bank of the river to move North past Custer’s flank, making Custer’s position untenable. Ultimately Custer retrograded to the high ground of the Battle Ridge Extension north of Last Stand Hill, to Last Stand Hill itself and to Cemetery Ridge (Company E on Cemetery). Soldier Wolf gives a brief account of the valley fight and the retreat back to the high ground near the monument. Importantly he says some soldiers turned and rushed over the hill. soon the Indians overpowered the soldiers and they began to give way, retreating slowly, face to the front. They fell back up the hill until nearly to where the monument now is. Then they turned and rushed over the hill. Soldier Wolf Northern Cheyenne From Grinnell 1897 Battle Lines page 159My view: It was Company L that rushed over the hill and away South to Calhoun Hill. If Soldier Wolf saw this then others did also and probably some warriors saw the need to move back to defend the village at Ford B. This leaves Custer and his HQ and four companies plus the wounded and dead on the above-mentioned high ground. Company L is now heading towards Calhoun Hill. I cannot give you details of their exact movements but at some time, perhaps 30 minutes later, Company C (probably Harrington) headed South and were followed quite quickly by Company I (Keogh). The movement to retreat from the Northern Valley was halted by one significant event; Company F lost their mounts; on the ridge (Battle Ridge Extension) just North of Last Stand Hill. One company that lost their horses was near where the road goes now. They were all on foot, going toward the Gray Horse Company. I got around on that side. About half of this company was without guns. They fought with six shooters. It was close fighting, almost hand-to hand, up that hill. The Gray Horse Company was on foot and kept the Indians off on one side and the other company came across in front of the Gray Horse Company. White Shield (Cheyenne):
They crowded the company furthest north and they started to run down the ridge. As they got part way down the ridge near the Gray Horse company the latter began to fire and drove the Indians off and the soldiers reached the Gray Horse company. The latter shot at the Indians so fast that they drove the Indians over the hill towards the (present day Crow) agency. John Two Moons (Cheyenne Memories of the Custer Fight page 65)Thus, we can understand that the final general locations of the companies are created by their movement not by their inaction. Custer did not divide and leave 60% of his force inactive on Calhoun Hill; he went on with his attack and was ultimately fixed with two companies on Last Stand Hill and Cemetery Ridge. Cheers Thanks Tom and Dave; there will be acknowledgements
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Post by herosrest on Jul 30, 2022 2:14:15 GMT -6
A consideration or two to help flesh things out. Relic finds pre-dating modern archaeology have NOT been considered by modern archaeologists who have based their work upon discoveries made during their work. Their work does not consider the evente prior to 1984. Whilst Scott tended towards circumspect opinion, others did not and in some cases were happy to state so whilst others did not. Calhoun Hill has been offered here as a lynchpin around which expansive manouvre took place. This is a highly unlikely proposition stepping only a few years further back into research data gathered during the 1960's and 70's and presented by Greene. A trail of cartridge finds along the terrain from Luce's ridges trhough Nye-Cartwright, crosses Deep Coulee and on to Calhoun Hill. The firing indicated by Luce's discovery indicates a detail firing towards Medicine Tail Ck. and then moving north. It is known from 1873 that Custer deployed details such as 20 men and an Officer to command and control dominating terrain. Luce and NC Ridge dominate terrain towards the river and offer the skyline seen from the river with nothing beyond, in view. Thus, the battalion or detachment thereof, were engaged in moving along that terrain from MTC onto Calhoun Hill and relics on Calhoun Hill indicate that movement from Deep Coulee onto the crest. Indian forces occupied Calhoun Hill initially and were pushed off it. It is beyond doubt the Indian camp extended to the Cheyenne circle sitting opposite the divide or Medicine Tail and Deep coulees and this would have been Custer's initial focus. Trees stood in the valley as they do today to obscure views east across the valley into the camp area. A modern penchant with the history of war with the Plains tribe has elevated tactical hostage taking (human shields) to a place which simply was not military mindset. Civilian captures at Washita and earlier campaigns presented awkward dilemmas and uncertainties which are not considered by modern students. Chief Custer has your wife and Kids and is taking them away! Now, what should I do about this? Will they be killed anyway. All our horses are being wiped out and our tipi's and food, burnt. Hmmm.... All bow to the White Man. when he is dead and full of arrows. Keep one for a toy! Custer's battalion attacked Calhoun Hill and were themselves attacked at Calhoun Hill. All military campaign battles against the Sioux, attacked their camps and destroyed them, leaving the populations destituted and wiser. Cavalry fought their way onto Calhoun Hill. The retreat from Little Bighorn valley freed large numbers of Indians to move and confront the Custer battalion and fully one half that Indian force moved up the bluffs below Reno Hill and crossed Medicine Tail Ck. to get at the soldiers. One amongst them was the Minnieconjou White Bull, a headbanger who made 7 kills. Archaeology did not begin in 1984! Little Bighorn - pre-archaeology which came to prominence with Heinrich Schlieman and whose work is still argued and furthered and offers little more than was left by the chronicles of Homer. Until the late 19th century, scholars regarded the Trojan War as entirely legendary. However, starting in 1871, Heinrich Schliemann and Frank Calvert excavated the site of the classical era city, under whose ruins they found the remains of numerous earlier settlements. Several of these layers resemble literary depictions of Troy, leading some scholars to conclude that there is a kernel of truth to the legends. Subsequent excavations by others have added to the modern understanding of the site, though the exact relationship between myth and reality remains unclear. Let's hear it for archaeology which matches spent cartridges with their bullets. If a detail of 20 cavalry troopers fought aong Luce and NC ridges (perfectly possible) they did a hell of a lot of shooting. Question. How was the military attack on Two Moons camp at Powder River, on St. Patrick's Day 1876 - undertaken. What did the soldiers do. Did Sully destroy Sioux villages in 1863 and 1864. Did Connor destroy Indian villages in 1865?OMG - Hmmm...........Walt & Don do Custer. ' There is a man at Birney, Montana named Charles 3. Earlanson, who has written a book on the Custer campaign which consists of statements from old Cheyennes. The University Press here is consIdering the book now Holy Simole...... The grail............ i've found it. Now, Earlanson certainly worked on battles - link and I have a vague recollection about art. Hmmm... here, as they say, is a Li'l pressie.................... Say thanks! Reconnaissance Survey of Indian-U.S. Army Battlefield of the Northern Plains By Jerome A. Greene. (enjoy)
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Post by Yan Taylor on Jul 30, 2022 2:44:38 GMT -6
Hi HR, now you know that wolftooth was present at this battle, so how come he mentions nothing in regard to what you have written. Plus, how come cartridges have been found from the same army carbine at calhoun Hill and another location near the Indian memorial.
Food for thought my friend.
Ian
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Post by Yan Taylor on Jul 30, 2022 2:48:04 GMT -6
Mac, The Northern Valley often alluded to the Northern Flats across the river from the wikiups (400ish),in the old entrance to the Park passed through this area. The wikiups were north of the Cheyenne circle. The Cheyenne also mentioned troops towards the current Crow reservation. You are on a bit of a roll my man. Regards, Tom Hi Tom, how is Steve doing, I left a PM for him on the blue board, but as yet no sign of him. Ian
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Post by tubman13 on Jul 30, 2022 4:17:36 GMT -6
Ian, Steve has much going on. He was to be at the LBHA conference, couldn't make it. As you know, that while he is retired, he is still active as a trainer and involved in some L.E.O. activities. He is also involved in a building project. It would be best if he responds to your PM.
Regards, Tom
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Post by herosrest on Jul 30, 2022 4:19:53 GMT -6
Hi HR, now you know that wolftooth was present at this battle, so how come he mentions nothing in regard to what you have written. Plus, how come cartridges have been found from the same army carbine at calhoun Hill and another location near the Indian memorial. Food for thought my friend. Ian I managed to hunt him down, eventually. He was a Police Chief at Birney. Funny that, with Earlanson taking stories from the Old Cheyennes. Wolftooth didn't mention anything about the battle to me. Timber told Rickey & Vaughn what WT told him and purportely showed him. My significant difficulty with Timber is that he knew Marquis when Marquis was interviewing the Cheyenne old timers about the battle. Their version of it as participants is not what Timber told 25 years later when his family were still trying to get a marker for Lame White Man. Their first request was 1925-26 when Godfrey inaugorated the unknown tomb at Garryowen and buried the hatchet. John Stands in Timber and Marquis were there for the %0th Anniversary. There are photos of Marquis with the ceremony and he (photo'd) Timber with his wife and kid. Now, on that weekend, Godfrey led 7th Cavalry from Garryowen, along the Hiway over the river and up onto the battlefield. They rode up from Ford D, as timber told Rickey and Vaughn 30 years later - YES 30 years later in 1956.............. when he wanted a marker (still) for LWM. In the maentime, all participants were dead, Kuhlman had had his revelation and the rest is history. The Cheyennes got the job done! They told the White Man what he wanted to hear. Brilliant.
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Post by herosrest on Jul 30, 2022 4:26:06 GMT -6
I'm going to context the yellow tangled hair of John Stands in Timber, 1956 and beyond, as elder and historian. Cheyenne youngsters were tediously put out that markers for soldiers were on their battleground and none were being allowed for the Cheyenne who went on to defeat Japan in 1945. They were going to get themselves into a mountain of trouble, and very nearly did - at Little Bighorn. Ask, Mike Donahue about it. link link linkQualified historical opinion.Now, I haven't criticised this theory. I have added to it with substantiated fact. Fact based in evidence which archaeology ignores and is happy to state that it does. How should I weight the findings of Nelson A. Miles, reported in 1878; against those of John Stands in Timber who was then not yet a twinkle, let alone breathing, thinking and learning life. It's an interesting problem, n'est pas? Did Miles take after Homer, or Dickens. Is this Thucydides trap? If Peter Wall told me to ignore Miles, i'd be waving two fingers at him. In reaching terrain opposite the village (Medicine Tail Ck. and beyond) the village was evacuating non-combatants to the west and responding to confront Maj. Reno's surprise attack in the valley. The camp was being deserted and movementscown the valley towards the big bends were up it - towards the cavalry, with ponies for the fighting men. The view into the valley from east of the river was poor. link. Long standing tactics required destruction of the Indian's property. Custer understood and had practiced and advocated hostage taking (against Indians) in his book My Life on the Plains, published two years before Little Big Horn. The camp was oposite MTC abandoned and the population were fleeing west or moving up the valley to fight. Custer may well have led his battalion a further four miles to the lower crossing places but unfortunately - there is zero physical evidence this took place. The idea that it did has no proof and is the realm of Charles Dickens.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Jul 30, 2022 7:04:59 GMT -6
I think that the way WT spoke of the battle to white men and Indians would be rather different, he spoke of the battle to his step grandson and gave him a guided tour, but I dont think he would give the same grace even through an interpreter to a white journalist.
Ian
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Post by herosrest on Jul 30, 2022 7:13:12 GMT -6
I was messing about with something else and stumbled into the pictures linked below, whichmight be of use indrafting for a publication. 1917 view west from Custer's Hill towards the Stone House and old access routes. link - Copyright:Courtesy of the National Park Service, Little Bighorn Battlefield National Monument, LIBI_00195_06970, Unknown Photographer, "Cars Parked at the Battlefield," circa 1917 - Constraints Information:Public domain Aerial Photograph of the Superintendent's Lodge, National Cemetery, and Little Bighorn Battlefield link - Constraints Information:Public domain Custer Monument with the iron fence around it. There are sixty-six headstones arranged in rows in front of the monument. A handwritten note on the verso reads: Custer Battle Field 1897 N Trall Parrom”. The photo was taken by Mr. Krotzenberg in 1897. link - Constraints Information:Public domain I believe the headstones shown were placed in 1888, with reburial of those killed with Fetterman. I would have expected 81 markers or more.............. so, some are out of view, or the work was progressive. - Constraints Information:Public domain There are a couple of more i'll add, which pertain to the Crow scout Curley who remains something of a flavour for battle students, though God knows why. It is little realised, or possibly greatly ignored that with settlement of the Crow tribe in Little Bighorn valley, Curley was alloted land......... immediately opposite the mouth of Deep Ravine along the river towards..... its bends. Its Willy's Bends. That is where he lived in cabin and tepee when the moos took him. He coraled his pony herd inside the Custer cemetery boundary fences and remarkably for someone there not long after the battle was fought, the Crows moved in in 1878, not a word during his years until his death in 1923, about hostile Indians using the lower fords. That is of interest because how do you think he got his horses onto the battlefield cemetery. That is not the national cemetery please note but the battleground proper which was fenced off as about a square mile. Curley, at his Log cabin in 1913. Curley. Regards.
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Post by herosrest on Jul 30, 2022 7:14:23 GMT -6
I think that the way WT spoke of the battle to white men and Indians would be rather different, he spoke of the battle to his step grandson and gave him a guided tour, but I dont think he would give the same grace even through an interpreter to a white journalist. Ian So, he was working for Russian counter-intelligence? If a white man asked him where the sun shone, the answer would differ from that he's give his wife?
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