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Post by Yan Taylor on Mar 13, 2022 13:31:01 GMT -6
Yeah Geir, I agree with you, if E Company men took refuge in a ravine, then to those on LSH, that would have looked like a safer place then that slope, the Indians do say that they initially backed off this breakout and then hit them as they ran down.
Ian
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Post by noggy on Mar 14, 2022 4:27:57 GMT -6
Yeah Geir, I agree with you, if E Company men took refuge in a ravine, then to those on LSH, that would have looked like a safer place then that slope, the Indians do say that they initially backed off this breakout and then hit them as they ran down. Ian To me, the amount of people charging down off LSH indicates that at least some of them were E Company guys. Unless they were F Company/others who were buried/dragged up back to LSH. Apparently there was a bugle signal before the charge, so it resembles an organized effort. Smith dead on LSH, Sturgis missing...sums up the strangeness of it all. Geir
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Post by Yan Taylor on Mar 14, 2022 14:50:32 GMT -6
Two accounts off the top of my head;
100 troopers on foot plus 5 on horseback gathered on a hill, Custer may have been killed, and 40 troopers fled for the river.
It looks like E Company was making preparations for their next move, or defence on Cemetery Hill when they were attacked, they fought for a while, but lost their horses due to Indian pressure, survivors then ran to the river towards a ravine (this ravine could be deep ravine or a totally different one). Custer and Weir then must have headed for the high ground, some still with their horses, it looks as if they were joined by the survivors from Keoghs wing, about 100 men on foot and a few still on horses gathered on a hill, The Indians now get reports of Custer being killed and then 40 troopers fled for the river, the ones on foot went to the ravine, the mounted ones to FFR, the Indians now say Where Custer fell there was about 30 troopers on foot and 20 on horses. At the end the only Troops now remaining were the ones on the western end of the ridge, concealed behind dead horses.
Ian
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Post by noggy on Mar 16, 2022 2:24:08 GMT -6
Two accounts off the top of my head; 100 troopers on foot plus 5 on horseback gathered on a hill, Custer may have been killed, and 40 troopers fled for the river.
It looks like E Company was making preparations for their next move, or defence on Cemetery Hill when they were attacked, they fought for a while, but lost their horses due to Indian pressure, survivors then ran to the river towards a ravine (this ravine could be deep ravine or a totally different one). Custer and Weir then must have headed for the high ground, some still with their horses, it looks as if they were joined by the survivors from Keoghs wing, about 100 men on foot and a few still on horses gathered on a hill, The Indians now get reports of Custer being killed and then 40 troopers fled for the river, the ones on foot went to the ravine, the mounted ones to FFR, the Indians now say Where Custer fell there was about 30 troopers on foot and 20 on horses. At the end the only Troops now remaining were the ones on the western end of the ridge, concealed behind dead horses.Ian Whose accounts were these, Ian? "Custer and Weir". "The indians now get reports of Custer getting killed" etc leads me to think they are not "accounts", but someone's opinion.? Geir
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Post by Yan Taylor on Mar 16, 2022 7:57:03 GMT -6
Hi Geir. The first one is an actual Indian account, whose account? I don’t remember. The second paragraph, is not an account but a section from either a book or a member of this site, again I can’t remember the author of the “said” paragraph. I posted up both because the match with the theory which you are currently running with, so I am using them as an example to show that your theory may have merit. Ian
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Post by noggy on Mar 16, 2022 14:18:49 GMT -6
Hi Geir. The first one is an actual Indian account, whose account? I don’t remember. The second paragraph, is not an account but a section from either a book or a member of this site, again I can’t remember the author of the “said” paragraph. I posted up both because the match with the theory which you are currently running with, so I am using them as an example to show that your theory may have merit. Ian Aha, I see. Yes, the first one resembles stuff I've read too, maybe a it is Two Moons? It was the second one I kinda didn't get. It would be pretty groundbreaking if anyone could place Weir there during the fighting" And the whole part about Indians getting reports about Custer being dead strike me as odd. Geir
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Post by Yan Taylor on Mar 16, 2022 14:54:41 GMT -6
Yeah, I am sorry about that, I should have made it clear about the second one.
Ian
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Post by Bruce Robert on Mar 17, 2022 13:56:06 GMT -6
I don't think E Company made it to LSH, they all ran to one of the ravines. They got hit from the rear or flank whist in skirmish order, the attack came through their horse holders and swept them off cemetery ridge. This is only my theory of course, but as to the thoughts of which ravine, then looking at this map, it would make cemetery ravine the nearest one to head for; <button disabled="" class="c-attachment-insert--linked o-btn--sm">Attachment Deleted</button> Maybe you're right, Ian. For me, it just seems like there was a break-out attempt or something like it from LSH. it may have been two different episodes too, but NA accounts have it/them as coming from LSH. There's some discussion about how many they were, but a couple of dozens seems about right and fits with 28 bodies etc etc. Since most of the bodies identified on LSH were F Company, staff and individuals from the other three companies, I'd wager some of the E Company guys got to LSH, before making a dash for the river. But who knows. Not me, that's for sure Noggy I suspect the confusion of a battlefield is creating this confusion. Add to that the different names given to geographical points, translations, etc. But I too think it was two groups, one of which made it as far as Deep Ravine. This group would have come from LSH and included Boyer(sp?). The other, E Company, as Yan suggests, were swept away similar to Kehoe's position. Simple math: Too many plus too motivated = no chance. On LSH, I can imagine (though this is pure speculation) a few horses still being held that break free and head downhill toward the river. The troopers holding them, out of instinct, give quick chase hoping to grab them before they get too far. Some others see this movement and follow, and so on. No command nor plan, just one last desperate effort to survive. Some did make it into Deep Ravine, but none got as far as the river. They very likely were the last to perish. Though at this point, it seems irrelevent which.
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Post by noggy on Mar 17, 2022 15:08:40 GMT -6
Maybe you're right, Ian. For me, it just seems like there was a break-out attempt or something like it from LSH. it may have been two different episodes too, but NA accounts have it/them as coming from LSH. There's some discussion about how many they were, but a couple of dozens seems about right and fits with 28 bodies etc etc. Since most of the bodies identified on LSH were F Company, staff and individuals from the other three companies, I'd wager some of the E Company guys got to LSH, before making a dash for the river. But who knows. Not me, that's for sure Noggy I suspect the confusion of a battlefield is creating this confusion. Add to that the different names given to geographical points, translations, etc. But I too think it was two groups, one of which made it as far as Deep Ravine. This group would have come from LSH and included Boyer(sp?). The other, E Company, as Yan suggests, were swept away similar to Kehoe's position. Simple math: Too many plus too motivated = no chance. On LSH, I can imagine (though this is pure speculation) a few horses still being held that break free and head downhill toward the river. The troopers holding them, out of instinct, give quick chase hoping to grab them before they get too far. Some others see this movement and follow, and so on. No command nor plan, just one last desperate effort to survive. Some did make it into Deep Ravine, but none got as far as the river. They very likely were the last to perish. Though at this point, it seems irrelevent which. I may read you post wrong, but worse things are going on these days War is confusion, name of the game and soon. But I agree on two "groups", E Company and the rest. if there were any "platoonification" I don't know. I, as of now, believe E Company was around Cemetery Ridge where it was hit hard, forced towards LSH and suffering some losses on the way. But I believe some of them made it to the vicinity of LSH, and fought for a while with the rest. Smith was found on LSH. I doubt he was there the whole time his company was on Cemetery Ridge, and I doubt he miraculously was the sole member from E Company reaching LSH. Huge margins for error on my part here, ofc. On LSH itself we have 40+ identified men, if i recall correctly. Nobody from E Company apart from Smith, so I think all identified men were from F Company and Staff+stragglers. That means someone else would have made the core of the biggest of what may have been several attempts to break out from LSH. Since speculation is what we do here to a large degree, Sturgis may have lead them. Who knows. They never found him, and it was said that some soldiers who got closest to the river was dumped in it after the battle. I do however feel confident in maybe about 20 men making a run for the river, I believe they might have been the remnants of E Company and some others, there was apparently a bugle call before they started so it seems planned, and they didn't make it. How close they got I don't know, since some of these soldiers were never found. I think the naked man playing dead on LSH MAY have been the last to die! Either way, we can all agree on them dying. All the best, Noggy
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