|
Post by Yan Taylor on Mar 7, 2022 14:39:22 GMT -6
I noticed this on youtube today, not seen it before so probably new. linkIan
|
|
|
Post by tubman13 on Mar 8, 2022 6:27:12 GMT -6
Ian, new link, but not new news. There are even questions if that is even the right ravine, gully, or ditch. If those were buried as described, would the scavengers have dragged away, water washed away, or a combination there of. There are already too many stones/markers on the Custer portion of the field. Not too many years ago a body was found alongside side the river, in the brush. Could that have been one, if more were that low, the spring runoff could have pushed those bodies a long way.
Regards, Tom
|
|
|
Post by backwater on Mar 8, 2022 8:55:56 GMT -6
This is from UNCOVERING HISTORY: THE LEGACY OF ARCHEOLOGICAL INVESTIGATIONS AT THE LITTLE BIGHORN BATTLEFIELD NATIONAL MONUMENT, MONTANA By Douglas D. Scot Deep Ravine Just what happened along the Deep Ravine Trail or South Skirmish Line is open to several interpretations. The archeological materials show that horses died there, men died there, and there was fighting along the trail where the white marble markers now stand. It was probably a breakout attempt as the Indian accounts suggest. The issue is whether it was organized or a helter-skelter event. The archeological evidence is not strong enough to refute or support either assumption (Figures 21, 35-38). The human skeletal remains do not appear to be from any E company men, although they are not definitively identified at this point. The bullets, cartridge cases, a rather poignant man’s wedding ring, and some other personal items, as well as evidence of cut marks and crushing blows on the skeletal remains certainly indicate that the victorious Lakota and Cheyenne had time to utterly destroy those soldiers who ventured toward Deep Ravine. The archeological evidence for combat is well established all along and in and around the marble markers that dot the length of the trail. While some marker locations are likely spurious, such as those found in pairs that have been investigated (Scott and Fox 1987; Scott et al. 1989; Scott, Willey, and Connor 1998), the vast majority likely represent a location where a soldier fell. The excavated makers, 2, 7, 9-10, 33-34, 42, and 52-53, all revealed human remains consistent with only one soldier at each marker or pair of markers. Over the ensuing years isolated exposures of human bone at other markers along the Deep Ravine trail indicate that far more than six men’s remains were covered over in that area in 1876. The question of the soldiers’ remains in Deep Ravine itself remains an open question. The geomorphological work by C. Vance Haynes (1989) and subsequent geophysical investigations (Josten and Carpenter 1995) all point to one area of the ravine where there is a geophysical anomaly (see Geomorphology of the Little Bighorn Battlefield for a more detailed synopsis of this work). Whether this will prove to be the burial site of up to 28 men or some other feature is entirely open to question and future resolution. Regardless, the archeological evidence of combat and soldiers’ resting places is compelling and clear all along the Deep Ravine trail. Michno’s (1994) argument that Cemetery Ravine is the true Deep Ravine burial site is a misinterpretation of the documentary and archeological evidence. Michno ignores the absence of archeological materials in Cemetery Ravine as well as the geological and geomorphological data that Cemetery Ravine has not been an active erosional feature for several thousand years. Geophysical investigations (Josten and Carpenter 1995) in Cemetery Ravine revealed a few small near-surface magnetic anomalies that are likely iron artifacts and natural magnetically susceptible soils. But no anomalies that could be even remotely construed to 85 CHRONOLOGY OF LITTLE BIGHORN BATTLEFIELD be burial sites were identified. The only anomaly consistent with such an interpretation is the one in Deep Ravine proper.
|
|
|
Post by backwater on Mar 8, 2022 10:23:22 GMT -6
Also saw this from 2014 but haven't watched yet. Bullets and bones from the battle of the little bighorn by Drs. Douglas D. Scott and P. Willey www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGVZvV-la_c
|
|
|
Post by tubman13 on Mar 8, 2022 10:43:16 GMT -6
Backwater, the Scott grab is excellent. Having met Fox in 2019, although briefly, they are certainly on the same page. Another good read is Scott's "A good walk around the boundary", it focuses on adjacent properties. It is currently out of print.
Regards Tom
|
|
|
Post by Yan Taylor on Mar 8, 2022 13:36:32 GMT -6
Ian, new link, but not new news. Oh yes Tom, I am aware of that, but I think it is good to post up any new clips, plus it is great to see the area in question so nicely portrayed on film. Ian
|
|
|
Post by noggy on Mar 9, 2022 2:04:46 GMT -6
Ian, new link, but not new news. Oh yes Tom, I am aware of that, but I think it is good to post up any new clips, plus it is great to see the area in question so nicely portrayed on film. Ian I think that when I do visit the battlefield some day, I might just have to carry a video camera, a regular camera and a GoPro. The lack of having been there and looked at the terrain is a major irritation. As a Norwegian, I probably won't be that impressed by the difficulty the terrain gave the soldiers, since I of course was born and raised on the top a 10km high mountain. Noggy
|
|
|
Post by herosrest on Mar 9, 2022 10:59:17 GMT -6
A thought I have held for some long time is about Deep Ravine deaths rather than burials since those were cursory, which is what M cDougall was really saying at RCoI. Without getting into anything tactical such as which way a skirmish line somewhere on DeepRavine was facing, if there was one - then it was spaced either 5 or 9 yards apar, on foot or mounted. Putting this in term's coigned by Fox, disintegration of such a linear formation in being over run, doesn't bunch up it scatters. I point this out after watching Micheal Donahue' Youtube from the ravine. He's convinced there is a pile of remains from 28 bodies 'n a 'bunch'somewhere under the ground. That is the one thing which didn't happen - a great big pile of 28 bodies heaped together in the bottom of the ravine with the sides collapsed on top. It simply didn't happen. Sorry. Hmmm..... I thought the video was here.... ho hum.... on the hunt..... There is a great read here.
|
|
|
Post by backwater on Mar 9, 2022 19:35:51 GMT -6
I've seen gully's or ravines change, 48 years is plenty apparently. One was 20 feet across and 35 deep at it's deepest, steep walls started 5 feet from top and was around 12 feet across lower down. As a kid i would jump across and land just above the steepest part. It was maybe 100 ft long then and grew to the uphill end. Now it's a swale 8 feet deep and 200 feet long. The places we played in are buried. I think it's possible E Troop is still there. As the ranger say's only one anomaly and it's where Camp with Kanipe surveyed it's location, that's hard to dismiss.
|
|
|
Post by noggy on Mar 10, 2022 3:14:17 GMT -6
I have never been that interested in the burial place of the E Company soldiers, personally. Michno's "The Mystery of E Troop" is in y shelf, but never got really into it. I just thought they maybe were buried along the slopes of LSH with the rest but never specultaed too much in it.
However the guy in Ian's link (I saw some of his other videos, seems pretty good and I liked the point he made about Fetterman but enough about that) mentioned something I had never thought about. Would the first burial party arriving after the siege of RH was lifted have dragged the decomposing bodies up from the ravine for a "burial", when they in most cases just threw a little dirt over them? Throwing dirt over them were they lay seems like a much more practical solution. But that means they either stayed there/were washed down into the river over time, or the proper burial parties arriving the following year(s) picked up tons of bones from the ravine and buried them closer to LSH. I think that would be something mentioned by those present.
I'll conclude it's safe to say they died, and leave it at that!
Noggy.
|
|
|
Post by Yan Taylor on Mar 10, 2022 9:57:08 GMT -6
There has aways been conflicting stories about deep ravine, some say that they were all E Company men driven off cemetery ridge, but others say E Company made it to the slope of LSH only to be ordered to sweep down hill in a last ditch attempt to get a rider free vis deep ravine.
But then mixed in with the line of markers which stretch from LSH to deep ravine, are a host of bodies who have supposedly been identified and as far as I know, none of these are from E Company.
Did E Company reach deep ravine, did the men on LSH see them gather in deep ravine and made a run to join them? Was there two ravines and E Company went to one and the LSH crew run to another?
|
|
|
Post by noggy on Mar 11, 2022 7:25:46 GMT -6
Did E Company reach deep ravine, did the men on LSH see them gather in deep ravine and made a run to join them? Was there two ravines and E Company went to one and the LSH crew run to another? Unless I totally mess this up, I think this was Michno's theory in hos book about the subject. The only thing which seems kind of cetain, is that E Company to a large degree was destoyed as a unit, give or take some casualties on CR. For some reason, Smith was if I recall correctly the only confirmed E Company member positively identified on LSH itself. There's room to speculate until the cows come home for both tea and supper here. Geir
|
|
|
Post by Yan Taylor on Mar 12, 2022 13:48:04 GMT -6
I don't think E Company made it to LSH, they all ran to one of the ravines. They got hit from the rear or flank whist in skirmish order, the attack came through their horse holders and swept them off cemetery ridge. This is only my theory of course, but as to the thoughts of which ravine, then looking at this map, it would make cemetery ravine the nearest one to head for;
|
|
|
Post by backwater on Mar 12, 2022 16:58:57 GMT -6
I can see the idea of running to cover. Wounded game run down hill to best cover and that to me is deep ravine. But we don't know what forces were in the way or advancing on them.
|
|
|
Post by noggy on Mar 13, 2022 10:53:19 GMT -6
I don't think E Company made it to LSH, they all ran to one of the ravines. They got hit from the rear or flank whist in skirmish order, the attack came through their horse holders and swept them off cemetery ridge. This is only my theory of course, but as to the thoughts of which ravine, then looking at this map, it would make cemetery ravine the nearest one to head for; <button disabled="" class="c-attachment-insert--linked o-btn--sm">Attachment Deleted</button> Maybe you're right, Ian. For me, it just seems like there was a break-out attempt or something like it from LSH. it may have been two different episodes too, but NA accounts have it/them as coming from LSH. There's some discussion about how many they were, but a couple of dozens seems about right and fits with 28 bodies etc etc. Since most of the bodies identified on LSH were F Company, staff and individuals from the other three companies, I'd wager some of the E Company guys got to LSH, before making a dash for the river. But who knows. Not me, that's for sure Noggy
|
|