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Post by agarbers on Feb 3, 2022 6:30:56 GMT -6
I am doing research about the use of the Colt SAA and the trend to only load five because of accidents. I have found a trooper, PVT Hoener, Company B, that had an accidental discharge and shot himself during the Black Hills Expedition in 1874. I was told that there were one or two others that also suffered an accidental discharge just before the LBH that kept them from being in the battle. I have searched every book I have and found no mention of this. I would appreciate any information related to this.
This has nothing to do with recent events.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Feb 3, 2022 12:36:35 GMT -6
I am doing research about the use of the Colt SAA and the trend to only load five because of accidents. I have found a trooper, PVT Hoener, Company B, that had an accidental discharge and shot himself during the Black Hills Expedition in 1874. I was told that there were one or two others that also suffered an accidental discharge just before the LBH that kept them from being in the battle. I have searched every book I have and found no mention of this. I would appreciate any information related to this. This has nothing to do with recent events.
With Corporal Foley the same thing. Revolver is drawn and the hammer cocked. Riding as full out gallop. His hat catches air and instinctively he reaches to cinch it down. The revolver goes off and anyone watching sees a suicide. The Indians state he was getting away and not closing. Seems a risky way to really commit suicide. Instead of pulling up and stopping and making a well-placed shot.
Regards
AZ Ranger
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Post by agarbers on Feb 3, 2022 20:51:01 GMT -6
Thank you for the information. I am focusing on accidental discharges when not cocked, such as when it's in the holster. The safety notch on the Colt SAA is easily sheared and a sudden impact from dropping or something hitting the hammer can cause the safety notch to fail and the gun go off. The official US Army manual stated that the revolver be fully loaded with six rounds. But in 1894 the book Modern Pistols and Revolvers the author said that frontiersmen and army officers carry the revolver with one chamber empty and the hammer resting on the empty chamber.
The accident by Hoener happened while he was mounting his horse and he shot himself in the leg. I have been told by other researchers that similar incidents occurred just prior to the LBH but they don't remember the details.
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Post by noggy on Feb 4, 2022 2:46:52 GMT -6
Thank you for the information. I am focusing on accidental discharges when not cocked, such as when it's in the holster. The safety notch on the Colt SAA is easily sheared and a sudden impact from dropping or something hitting the hammer can cause the safety notch to fail and the gun go off. The official US Army manual stated that the revolver be fully loaded with six rounds. But in 1894 the book Modern Pistols and Revolvers the author said that frontiersmen and army officers carry the revolver with one chamber empty and the hammer resting on the empty chamber. The accident by Hoener happened while he was mounting his horse and he shot himself in the leg. I have been told by other researchers that similar incidents occurred just prior to the LBH but they don't remember the details. I hope Fred sees this and chimes in. I don't emember if his Participants mentions people left at FAL, to be honest, but he has enormous nowledge about the 7th in general. Noggy |
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Post by Yan Taylor on Feb 4, 2022 9:10:34 GMT -6
I have some data on file which covers the men from each company left behind at FAL and PRD, This is quite probably Freds work, so I hope I have got the totals right.
A Company:
FAL & PDR - 9
B Company:
FAL & PDR - 28
C Company:
FAL & PDR - 16
D Company:
FAL & PDR - 16
E Company:
FAL & PDR - 13
F Company:
FAL & PDR - 17
G Company:
FAL & PDR - 24
H Company:
FAL & PDR - 11
I Company:
FAL & PDR - 20
K Company:
FAL & PDR - 29
L Company:
FAL & PDR - 13
M Company:
FAL & PDR – 9
Now I get that to 205 in total.
I think that a lot of these men were left behind because of the lack of mounts, but I am not 100% on that.
Ian
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Post by crzhrs on Feb 4, 2022 12:34:28 GMT -6
I have some data on file which covers the men from each company left behind at FAL and PRD, This is quite probably Freds work, so I hope I have got the totals right. A Company: FAL & PDR - 9 B Company: FAL & PDR - 28 C Company: FAL & PDR - 16 D Company: FAL & PDR - 16 E Company: FAL & PDR - 13 F Company: FAL & PDR - 17 G Company: FAL & PDR - 24 H Company: FAL & PDR - 11 I Company: FAL & PDR - 20 K Company: FAL & PDR - 29 L Company: FAL & PDR - 13 M Company: FAL & PDR – 9 Now I get that to 205 in total. I think that a lot of these men were left behind because of the lack of mounts, but I am not 100% on that. Ian Custer left his band behind but took the band's horses which were the "white/gray" ones mentioned by Indians. As a side note, Adam Vinatieri's (field goal kicker for NE Patriots) great grandfather (Felix) was the leader of the band. If the band went to the LBH and Felix was killed the NE Patriots Super Bowl run may never have happened because Adam made the field goal kick to win the game. Oh how strange history is! |
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Post by Yan Taylor on Feb 4, 2022 15:04:23 GMT -6
Thanks CzH, add another 17 to that total.
Ian
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Post by Colt45 on Feb 4, 2022 19:12:17 GMT -6
there is mention of one of Crook's soldiers shooting himself with his revolver, and subsequently dying from the wound. This was before the battle of the Rosebud.
agargers is right about the single action army. Carrying an empty chamber under the hammer is the only safe way to keep from shooting your own leg off. With more modern single action pistols, such has the Colt Cowboy, there is a transfer bar that allows the weapon to be carried safely when fully loaded.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Feb 5, 2022 8:24:31 GMT -6
I have an older Ruger Colt .45 with a heavy frame. It was Colterized which rubbed out the warning on the barrel and smoothed the edges. I carry it on patrol along with my Duty Weapon. Horseback may only give you one chance to do things right.
It does have the same hammer transfer bar that requires pulling the trigger to be in place. I also have a real Colt, Colt Cowboys, and Ruger Vaqueros.
Regards
AZ Ranger
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Post by agarbers on Feb 5, 2022 16:02:55 GMT -6
there is mention of one of Crook's soldiers shooting himself with his revolver, and subsequently dying from the wound. This was before the battle of the Rosebud. agargers is right about the single action army. Carrying an empty chamber under the hammer is the only safe way to keep from shooting your own leg off. With more modern single action pistols, such has the Colt Cowboy, there is a transfer bar that allows the weapon to be carried safely when fully loaded. Where did you find this? I would like to read about it. |
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Post by backwater on Feb 6, 2022 3:40:06 GMT -6
Seem to recall that the carbine was pretty dangerous and one of crooks men died shooting himself while in the saddle, may have been his Colt. Didn't the reporter from Chicago Finnerty? have a discharge while riding? think it was his carbine.
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Post by noggy on Feb 6, 2022 6:13:52 GMT -6
How usual was it to have only 5 rounds in the Colt? I can understand that it was a safety measure when on the move, but would troopers put in the last round if combat was looking likely?
Noggy
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Post by noggy on Feb 6, 2022 6:20:24 GMT -6
Seem to recall that the carbine was pretty dangerous and one of crooks men died shooting himself while in the saddle, may have been his Colt. Didn't the reporter from Chicago Finnerty? have a discharge while riding? think it was his carbine. You are correct, Finerty had an accidental discharge with his Colt prior to the battle of Rosebud. He managed to bang his rifle into his revolver which went off, but the shot ripped through his saddle but did not harm him or anyone else. And oh; during the Rosebud fight, a warrior named White Wolf accidentally shot himself in the thigh or leg when pulling out his rifle from his scabbard. Noggy |
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Post by agarbers on Feb 6, 2022 7:30:34 GMT -6
The official army manuals used during the use of the Colt SAA said to load six and place the hammer on the not so safe notch. However, the book, Modern American Revolvers and Pistols, written in 1888 and revised in 1894, stated that experienced frontiersmen and army officers only loaded five and lowered the hammer on the empty chamber.
In the book, Gun Notches by AZ Ranger Rynning, Tom goes into some detail on the common practice of only loading five. The practice was so common, another AZ Ranger was wounded because he thought the bad guy was out of rounds because he had fired five. The ranger stopped shooting and dropped his guard. The bad guy had one more shot and took it. This was pre-1912 in the region by Douglas.
Wyatt Earp had his revolver fall out of its holster while he was in a chair while living in Kansas. The hammer hit the floor and the round fired putting a hole in his coat if I remember correctly. He later said it never happened and he always carried five rounds to be safe.
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Post by agarbers on Feb 6, 2022 7:51:38 GMT -6
Seem to recall that the carbine was pretty dangerous and one of crooks men died shooting himself while in the saddle, may have been his Colt. Didn't the reporter from Chicago Finnerty? have a discharge while riding? think it was his carbine. You are correct, Finerty had an accidental discharge with his Colt prior to the battle of Rosebud. He managed to bang his rifle into his revolver which went off, but the shot ripped through his saddle but did not harm him or anyone else. And oh; during the Rosebud fight, a warrior named White Wolf accidentally shot himself in the thigh or leg when pulling out his rifle from his scabbard. Noggy "We came near having a casualty in the accidental discharge of the revolver of Mr. John F. Finerty, the bullet burning the saddle and breaking it, but, fortunately, doing no damage to the rider. By daylight of the next day, June 17, 1876, we were marching down the Rosebud." John Bourke's Story of the Battle www.astonisher.com/archives/museum/rosebud/john_bourke_rosebud.html#finerty_burn_saddleThank you for that. |
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