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Jan 31, 2022 21:06:15 GMT -6
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Post by greathunter on Jan 31, 2022 21:06:15 GMT -6
Lets just say (humor me here) That he was shot crossing the river to the valley encampment. Maybe he wasnt dead but badly wounded, i dont see his top men who were with him just abandoning thier commander to the native americans. So they got him back up on his horse and took off for last stand hill I have just looked at pictures that show human skulls and horse skeletons all over that hill.. So that would mean custer was no longer in command, he was losing blood and strength.. so then who would take over command? Im sure( if it happened) tom custer would defend his older brother to the death, and when thier line got overwhelmed by the suicide boys Tom Or another soldier close to custer shot him in the head to keep him from. Being taken and tortured.
Just my two cents
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Feb 1, 2022 14:00:17 GMT -6
Post by Yan Taylor on Feb 1, 2022 14:00:17 GMT -6
Again though, a lot of Indian accounts say that the soldiers never even got to the river, let alone get their feet wet.
Again! who says that it was ford B where this crossing took place, it could have been ford D. Look at both locations, both have high ground held by soldiers, both have a large coulee and both have a crossing point. We have to think about these Indian accounts, many went through translators so things do get mixed up.
Again, try and find a copy of the JSIT map, it has the route taken by a column off Nye/Cartwright across deep coulee, along battle ridge past the monument and down a coulee past a ruined house and on to the river, then back up to the cemetery.
Ian
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Feb 1, 2022 14:27:08 GMT -6
Post by noggy on Feb 1, 2022 14:27:08 GMT -6
Again though, a lot of Indian accounts say that the soldiers never even got to the river, let alone get their feet wet. Michno analyzed the NA testimonies from what is believed/claimed to have been the US movement toward Ford B. I think White Cow Bull was the only one who mentioned the soldiers actually reaching/getting into the river...and like I've said before, he seems to have been some sort of Rambo seeing all kinds of stuff. If anything, Michno showed many of the testimonies having the skirmish happen on the east side of the river, and most in total said the soldiers turned back long before the reached the water. Which makes sense; too few to take a village if it was two companies, but enough to make a statement/feint. Geir
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Feb 1, 2022 14:35:47 GMT -6
Post by Yan Taylor on Feb 1, 2022 14:35:47 GMT -6
Hi Geir, we had been taliking about this on the other board, that the column split in MTC and took two routes to the high ground north of LSH, which would make sense, as it would make the column shorter because it was in two parts. If you look at the McGuire maps, it shows similar trails, the smaller two company outfit could have shielded the other as it travelled across deep coulee, that would mean that the one nearest the river could warn the other.
Ian
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Feb 1, 2022 14:43:07 GMT -6
Post by noggy on Feb 1, 2022 14:43:07 GMT -6
Hi Geir, we had been taliking about this on the other board, that the column split in MTC and took two routes to the high ground north of LSH, which would make sense, as it would make the column shorter because it was in two parts. Yep, in some shape or other also the conventional theories tend to have EF splitting off, going close to the river and then meeting the three others who had stayed above them. Seems right. Geir
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Feb 1, 2022 14:46:08 GMT -6
Post by Yan Taylor on Feb 1, 2022 14:46:08 GMT -6
So if you add the other column (E&F) to the other column which Wolftooth followed then you have all five companies moving north of LSH. Wolftooth may have been two far east to see E&F as he even said that they soldiers moved down a coulee up past the monument.
Ian
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Feb 1, 2022 14:57:32 GMT -6
Post by noggy on Feb 1, 2022 14:57:32 GMT -6
So if you add the other column (E&F) to the other column which Wolftooth followed then you have all five companies moving north of LSH. Wolftooth may have been two far east to see E&F as he even said that they soldiers moved down a coulee up past the monument. Ian That would depend on where you have them reunited. On that some people will disagree. To put it mildly That is one of the intersting parts of this battle; testimonies and even maps can be used to argue for opposing views. Michno uses testimonies and artifacts and maps to show how the troopers met at Calhoun Hill, but I have seen the same things be used to support other scenarios. Which is fine to me. Geir
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Feb 2, 2022 13:39:59 GMT -6
Post by Yan Taylor on Feb 2, 2022 13:39:59 GMT -6
Hi Geir, if they did seperate into two, which looks likely looking at the testemonies and cartridge finds, then the group which moved down MTC would have no need to exit the coulee and move east up deep coulee to unite with the larger group. They knew the route taken off Nye-Cartwright by the other three companies, so moving up along the western corridor and meeting up on Cemetery ridge would work just fine.
Ian
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Feb 2, 2022 15:14:47 GMT -6
Post by noggy on Feb 2, 2022 15:14:47 GMT -6
Hi Geir, if they did seperate into two, which looks likely looking at the testemonies and cartridge finds, then the group which moved down MTC would have no need to exit the coulee and move east up deep coulee to unite with the larger group. They knew the route taken off Nye-Cartwright by the other three companies, so moving up along the western corridor and meeting up on Cemetery ridge would work just fine. Ian I mentioned Michno the other day, since I saw his book close to me at the time of reading. he shows a number of maps (some are though as he points out made by Indians who did not hang around Ford B at the time stuff happened near it) and as usual supplies numerous testimonies, and his conclusion was pretty interesting (I'll have to reread the chapter s a whole, this is just from the chapter's "Discussion" section): "From a number of accounts it appears that Yates retreated up the same same terrain he advanced." So he has the Battalion united on Nye-Cartwright and then proceeding North. His opinions are of course his own, but I do find the structure of Lakota Noon kinda interesting,I did something of the same in my master's Thesis with a "Disussion" section after each chapter. Geir
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Feb 6, 2022 16:51:59 GMT -6
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Post by herosrest on Feb 6, 2022 16:51:59 GMT -6
The Custer shot in the water discussion will rumble along for ever 'cos no-one knows. What was learnt by Sturgis (father) is that his son was killed and the body disposed of in the river.
Family (again) learnt that Bouyer and an NCO were found at the close, in timber on the river and both killed and disposed of in the river.
The movement downriver by the five companies is long mulled and wrapped in the blubber this battle harpoons. A significantly large number of the defending forces departed Reno's retreat from the valley and assaulted the five companies along routes up the bluffs below Weir's Peak down the coulees including Cedar coulee, to cross Medicine Tail.
This was why that force pulled away from the river and downriver. This was known by Terry's staff and is a matter of record at the time. This was confirmed by Miles investigation in 1878.
Those are the nuts and bolts of it.
Regards.
Miles seems to be a confusing contributor to discussion and study of the battle and perhaps because his conclusions are unpopular. That does not detract from his experience as a US Army Officer and commander of it, although he is broadly controversial. Walking Jefferson Davies around in leg irons and ball was somewhat criticised by those who did not see the irony. Actually, I feel sure that Miles was determined his prisoner would not escape his guard.
Well Nelson, i'm here to see him. Sorry Abe..... He escaped....
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Feb 6, 2022 19:54:49 GMT -6
Post by herosrest on Feb 6, 2022 19:54:49 GMT -6
Is it nuts for the squirrels, or squirrels for the nuts? BlubberWhen Luce was wandering about finding stuff, he took lots of phtos Of coursee Joe Blummmer was up there first, maybe 20 years before anf found cartridges. We know that Blummer told truths. He also got the story of things from Big Beaver and there is Big Beaver's map which explains what he told everyone and shows what everyone failed to understand when he told them. So, Blummer found cartridges all over the railway land at Garryowen, where he owned and ran........ the store. Imagine that. Joseph A. BlummerAnd lastly for now, since the web is going crazy (It's falling apart, you know) here's an auction item of interest link Historical. of course. Whoops - wrong pic, above link
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Feb 6, 2022 20:37:51 GMT -6
Post by herosrest on Feb 6, 2022 20:37:51 GMT -6
There is a modern action sequence here of fighting near the river between the Medicine Tail and Deep Coulees. What is interesting is the view across the river into the valley and what cannot be seen. Basically that is - anything what so ever. You cannot see squat of what in the valley. Squat of what....... yey!
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Post by backwater on Feb 7, 2022 0:58:38 GMT -6
Dang H now I'll be up till i cant see looking at those, thanks i think.
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Feb 7, 2022 3:20:52 GMT -6
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Post by herosrest on Feb 7, 2022 3:20:52 GMT -6
enjoy. I'm watching the snowboarding women. I ran into those pics a ways back and kept them in the back pocket. It's time for a popular discussion since there are enough of each location to nail the exact positions by observation on the ground.
Steve, AZRanger is aware of them, I believe, and has done some ground work. He's onto something and I hope Covid doesn't rob us of it.
Regards.
I can see for miles. That's Nelson Miles.
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