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ANSWERS
Jan 25, 2022 15:45:10 GMT -6
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Post by greathunter on Jan 25, 2022 15:45:10 GMT -6
Hello everyone,
I have studied the BLBH for years, and it absolutely boggles my mind how Custer made the mistakes and miscalculations that he made. None of you may be in agreement with me on any of my views But here it goes.
A..a lot of people say Custer done his due diligence as far as recon is concerned but i wholeheartedly disagree 1000% Matter of fact i dont even think that his superiors had a clue as to how many natives had indeed joined forces at that time. B...To call Custer a great commander in this battle to me is foolishness. So many mistakes, and not enough thinking it through.. quite frankly i dont care what the u.s army Manual said at that time as far as strategy for this sort of thing, it was not handled in a appropriate manner.. Terry gave custer 2 regiments of the 2nd if i recall and offers the gatling guns, Custer declines both. As well as not allowing the sabres to be taken. (BIG MISTAKES) by not asserting the true size of the village, (and not listening to his scouts) his campaign was doomed. If he would have just waited a extra day on gibbons and terry, maybe this great disaster could have been avoided. The U.S army gives their troops inefficient rifles and expects them to be effective? Ummm no, seems stupid to me. There is a account by TWO-MOONS ABOUT A BRAVE WHITE MAN WITH LONG BLACK HAIR IN BUCKSKIN RIDING A SORREL HORSE WITH WHITE STOCKINGS AND A WHITE FACE, WHO FOUGHT WITH A BIG KNIFE IN HAND TO HAND COMBAT WHO WAS HE? if anyone can answer this, thank you.
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Post by noggy on Jan 26, 2022 4:16:09 GMT -6
There is a account by TWO-MOONS ABOUT A BRAVE WHITE MAN WITH LONG BLACK HAIR IN BUCKSKIN RIDING A SORREL HORSE WITH WHITE STOCKINGS AND A WHITE FACE, WHO FOUGHT WITH A BIG KNIFE IN HAND TO HAND COMBAT WHO WAS HE? if anyone can answer this, thank you. Hello and welcome. The short answer is; nope First of, Two Moons saw, depending on the interview, things which weren't real, my favorite being; " The Sioux chased them up the hill, where they met more soldiers in wagons (...)". So as always our sceptical cap should be put on. I'm not sure if this testimony has been 100% placed on the battlefield; depending on if it was on Calhoun Hill, LSH or in Keogh's sector/BR in general, it would exclude certain personel. I personally am pretty sure he talked about LSH. At least that is whow I remember thinking when I read the whole thing. So if we do, we have narrowed it down somewhat (Harrington is a possibility almost all over the place). Calhoun, Crittenden etc are off the list. A big issue is this: It seems like it was standard procedure for troopers and officers to cut their hair very short before going on/during a lengthy campaign. Of course, some people's hair grow faster than others (especially if they drink beer, lots of great vitamin B in it!), but I can't remember seeing pictures of any officer in the 7th who had long, black hair to begin with. And in the field, they would porbably have tried to keep their hair short. Even GAC, who liked to pose with his "glam rock anno 1986" hair for pictures when off duty wanted to be comfortable when on the trek. From recollection, the one I've seen with anything resemling "long, black hair" is Keogh, but this doesn't fit the story. Two Moons told how he personally counted dead soldiers, finding 388 (at least one source has it as 488). This is of course wrong. BUT it might just be due to another way of counting, and Michno had a decent theory on this in Lakota Noon. We also know the NAs did not operate with the same colors as we do. The possibility of written down NA testimonies 100% reciting what they actually said/meant, is very small. What we understood to be "black" could be ment as being any number of dark shades. Poor translatiion and lacking understanding their way of seeing things in general have led to many testimonies being less precise than they could have been, leading to confusion even in this day. BUT, back to your question, here's a thought: Cooke had a very long, dark mustache. So long, in fact, Wooden Leg (most likely) cut one off as he considered it a "scalp". He was Cheyenne too, like Two Moons. He was one of the Custer Clan, and could have been wearing a fancy jacket. So to me, there are several possibilities here, and I'd say the ones which stick out to me are 1. Something was lost in translation, with the description not being spot-on. 2. It was either BS, or Two Moons re-told something he had heard from others; Sitting Bull once told a reporter what his warriors told him about the Custer fight, which he himself did not take part in. Others did too (White Cow Bul, I'm looking at you...) 3. It was Cooke. The "long black hair" being his dark facial hair, which was so strange and noteworthy to the NAs that one sliced of parts of it as a trophy. Knowing this battle "right", I'm probably totally wrong. But these are my immediate ramblings. All the best, Noggy
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ANSWERS
Jan 26, 2022 6:59:51 GMT -6
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Post by greathunter on Jan 26, 2022 6:59:51 GMT -6
Noggy, thank you very much William winer cooke is the only one who comes to mind, " at least to me" Said he fought very hard with a big knife..also said he was ridimg up and down repeatedly on a sprrel horse with a white face and white stocking feet..
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Post by Colt45 on Jan 26, 2022 9:19:06 GMT -6
greathunter,
You are on the right track about Custer and recon. He did not do any recon of the battlespace prior to crossing the divide. When he thought he had been discovered he rushed to attack, flying by the seat of his pants. Had he held up on the 25th, as he initially planned, he could have sent scouts out, and he would have discovered there was no need to send Benteen on his 'scout', and he would have known the size of the village, and he also would have known that the east side of the river presented 'no-go' terrain, which could have blocked that very large village from fleeing to the east.
Hence he could have sent Reno across at ford A to attack the south end of the village, while he and the rest of the regiment would cross at ford A behind him and move further west to flank the village, disrupt the pony herd, and support Reno's attack. If the Indians fled, it would be to the north, toward Terry.
Custer himself was a pretty good general, when he was commanding very large units, as he did in the civil war. But at LBH, he was not commanding a corp, he was commanding a battalion size force. Custer was advanced in rank from company-level to general-grade, bypassing the field grade ranks. The strategy and tactics used at company level, field level, and general level, while in general are the same, are quite a bit different at each level in how they are conducted. Custer acted at LBH as if he were commanding a civil war division of troops. His use of tactics were geared around what a general commanding a very large force would use. He didn't have the combat power to pull off what he attempted.
For example, his decision to use Reno to attack from the south, while he flanked the village, or attempted to envelop it, was a sound military tactic that he had used successfully before. But without good recon, he tried to flank on the east side, instead of crossing after Reno and attempting the tactic from the west side of the river, where the terrain on the west favored the 7th, and also allowed him to properly support Reno.
His refusal to accept the gatling guns, 2nd Cavalry units, and to carry sabers showed that he was acting with his own best interests at heart, not the interests of his men. His overwhelming hubris got him killed, along with his men.
His rush to battle on the 25th was the first mistake that caused a series of other mistakes which just cascaded as he continued on.
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ANSWERS
Jan 26, 2022 16:57:15 GMT -6
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Post by greathunter on Jan 26, 2022 16:57:15 GMT -6
COLT45, I HAVE ASSERTED FROM THE GET GO THAT PANIC AND CHAOS SET IN VERY EARLY, A LOT OF FOLKS AROUND ME CALL BULLSHIT ON THAT...I DONT KNOW WHY
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Post by Colt45 on Jan 26, 2022 21:43:15 GMT -6
greathunter,
We know panic occurred during Reno's breakout of the timber, probably caused by Reno's 'panic' when Bloody Knife's brains were blown all over him. This panic lasted on the hilltop until Benteen arrived. Up until then there is no evidence that the troops with Reno panicked during the fight on the skirmish line. As to Custer, we can't know if all the troops with him panicked, but most likely that occurred as command cohesion disintegrated. Evidence on the ground, as well as Indian testimony, strongly points to general panic among the 5 companies, which were operating independently toward the end, as evidenced by their locations, which were out of supporting range of each other.
We can't know when Custer's men panicked exactly, as there is also ground evidence and Indian testimony that indicates a coordinated resistance for a short period of time before they were wiped out. But almost certainly, panic did occur as it became obvious their goose was cooked.
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Post by backwater on Jan 26, 2022 21:45:04 GMT -6
Call it panic if you want. To many legends and stories to ever know. At the very end when it was completely obvious it was over i feel the remaining men decided how they would die. The majority died in place some were pushed into a retreat/reverse that ended wherever. Where could you run? Surrounded means just that. East side or west side no diff. Easier for NA's most likely, still enough terrain features to allow them to close in. They could read ground so well a slight swale or knoll makes all the difference if understood in time.
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Jan 27, 2022 0:34:04 GMT -6
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Post by greathunter on Jan 27, 2022 0:34:04 GMT -6
Backwater i agree with you..while im not on the side of the 7th (as my mother was 1/2 cherokee) What you say holds substantial weight
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ANSWERS
Jan 27, 2022 2:01:13 GMT -6
Post by noggy on Jan 27, 2022 2:01:13 GMT -6
greathunter, You are on the right track about Custer and recon. He did not do any recon of the battlespace prior to crossing the divide. When he thought he had been discovered he rushed to attack, flying by the seat of his pants. Had he held up on the 25th, as he initially planned, he could have sent scouts out, and he would have discovered there was no need to send Benteen on his 'scout', and he would have known the size of the village, and he also would have known that the east side of the river presented 'no-go' terrain, which could have blocked that very large village from fleeing to the east. And this is really strange to me, because he had with him Crow scouts who one might have known the terrain. Perhaps MB also knew the area. All the best, Noggy
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Jan 27, 2022 8:12:22 GMT -6
Post by backwater on Jan 27, 2022 8:12:22 GMT -6
Custer and flying by seat of his pants sums it up at that point in time for sure. Best bet might be to keep south as Terry suggested, at least feint south and hold their attention till Terry showed. Thought about what else he could have tried then. what if he would have followed route of modern hwy 212 and came from the east. make the western tip of Nye Cartwright ridge . From there with all his command he might have had better options but the numbers are still bad. Send 3 co's at medicine tail supported by 2 more while the rest circle LSH from the north? From N/C i think he would have seen the odds and not been so fast to divide. Not sure how he would handle that. Ground just sucks, and not enough men.
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ANSWERS
Jan 31, 2022 7:42:21 GMT -6
Post by tubman13 on Jan 31, 2022 7:42:21 GMT -6
Hello everyone, I have studied the BLBH for years, and it absolutely boggles my mind how Custer made the mistakes and miscalculations that he made. More people than you would think agree with you, it is the fanboys who perpetuate that GAC had any resemblance of a plan shared with his subordinates going in. None of you may be in agreement with me on any of my views But here it goes. A..a lot of people say Custer done his due diligence as far as recon is concerned but i wholeheartedly disagree 1000% Again fanboys. Custer screwed up at the Washita and Travilan Station, that's where Custer's Luck comes in.Matter of fact i dont even think that his superiors had a clue as to how many natives had indeed joined forces at that time. You are dead on here.B...To call Custer a great commander in this battle to me is foolishness. So many mistakes, and not enough thinking it through.. Colt answers this point below.quite frankly i dont care what the u.s army Manual said at that time as far as strategy for this sort of thing, it was not handled in a appropriate manner.. There was no manual on this type of warfare.Terry gave custer 2 regiments of the 2nd if i recall and offers the gatling guns, Custer declines both. The commander of the 2nd Cavalry offered 2 companies, not regiments. Declining the Gatling guns was no mistake, they could barely control the mules, Gatling guns were better used for a defensive positions not for attack.As well as not allowing the sabres to be taken. (BIG MISTAKES) Do you think these poorly trained troops would have been adept with sabers, hell they couldn't shoot a revolver from a moving horse, at least the majority of them. by not asserting the true size of the village, (and not listening to his scouts) his campaign was doomed. No crap.If he would have just waited a extra day on gibbons and terry, maybe this great disaster could have been avoided. The U.S army gives their troops inefficient rifles and expects them to be effective? Ummm no, seems stupid to me. The lack of training didn't help either. Copper casings were a bitch.There is a account by TWO-MOONS ABOUT A BRAVE WHITE MAN WITH LONG BLACK HAIR IN BUCKSKIN RIDING A SORREL HORSE WITH WHITE STOCKINGS AND A WHITE FACE, WHO FOUGHT WITH A BIG KNIFE IN HAND TO HAND COMBAT WHO WAS HE? if anyone can answer this, thank you. Lt. DeRudio was the only officer in the command with a saber, and he was with Reno, and pretty useless there.Nice thought process. Regards, Tom
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Jan 31, 2022 9:49:08 GMT -6
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Post by greathunter on Jan 31, 2022 9:49:08 GMT -6
Tubman13/ Tom, not just trying to throw crap at the wall to see what sticks, i study this in depth every night. And i will still stick to custer being wounded as he made his charge across the river, and his group going to pieces mentally..and all the native american accounts i have read say very clearly there was no circle of dead horses used for breastworks The accounts say ( the ones i have read) that after the soldiers got to custers hill, it was over in a matter of maybe 15-20 minutes. The soldiers they said didnt have time to prepare a fortified position Because the NA'S were all over them Now, (this is important) What did custers horse look like? Victory was a sorrel with 4 white stocking feet..the na accounts gove a description of the exact same description when they say custer was shot fording the river to the village...cheers
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Post by susannah on Jan 31, 2022 12:59:34 GMT -6
How much and what kind of white Vic had on his legs has led to an awful lot of debate about what happened to him and where Custer was on the battlefield. This is what we know for sure from the one known photograph of Vic. He had one white stocking--the near rear (the left rear) and one white sock--the off rear (the right rear. He appears to have a narrow white coronet band on the near fore (the left front), The off fore can't really be determined from the photo, although somebody with really good eyesight may be able to figure it out. So I doubt that anyone would describe him as having four white stockings, especially when he was in motion. although it's possible that he had white on all four legs.
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Jan 31, 2022 17:37:44 GMT -6
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Post by greathunter on Jan 31, 2022 17:37:44 GMT -6
Can you explain all the NA accounts of a complete route? Archeologists as well? And custer being shot at the river crossing?? This would make sense, in the sense that some reports are of it neing a every man for himself type deal all the way to custer hill.. Custer severly wounded would explain the the disorganization would it not?
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Jan 31, 2022 20:23:09 GMT -6
Post by Colt45 on Jan 31, 2022 20:23:09 GMT -6
Most of the accounts of an officer shot at the river refer to the man wearing a buckskin coat. Custer had removed his coat due to the heat. While it's possible the officer shot at the river was Custer, most likely it wasn't him.
The river location most likely is ford D, not ford B. Custer's wound was in the chest, which was most likely fatal within a minute or two. The next officer in charge would not have removed him, then proceeded further north. That would have been illogical and dumb. If ford B was the location, the correct move would be to pull back toward LNC, followed by a move back toward Reno.
If ford D was where he was wounded (if he was indeed the officer wounded at the river), then the accounts of the troops delaying for about 15 minutes on Cemetery Ridge makes more sense, as the doctor would be trying to treat him while the next in command tried to come up with a plan to get their fat out of the fire. But the scenario of him being wounded at the river doesn't account for the head wound, which bears indications of having been administered by someone trying to make sure he would not be taken alive. So, why would they carry him to LSH after he was dead. Makes no sense.
If he was not the officer shot at the river, then it makes sense that he would have been shot either at Cemetery Ridge or at LSH. The head shot was to make sure he would not be taken alive. Of course, we will never know for sure, we can only make educated guesses based upon what makes the most sense, given the rapidly moving action and confusion that was occurring.
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