Combat effectiveness after the rout?

[barneytom]

To be honest if Wier did move without orders, he put the whole command at risk. With, Reno's command broken already, they were not gonna take many casualties before breaking again. I think the whether Wier moved without orders or not comes from people trying to cover for him at RCOI. He had passed not too long before the proceedings and they might not have wanted to speak ill of the recently deceased. The retreat from Wier point was one skirmish line away from a total rout.

[Yan Taylor]

That period of time between Benteen arriving and the move to Weir point by a collection of companies under Benteen, sounds like a real mess, no one can agree on anything, just read the accounts by the officers, they are all over the place.

[fred]

Tom Weir did move without orders. If you analyze the timing and what others said, the puzzle pieces fit, though not as anyone has ever deciphered it before... but they fit. Weir never spoke with either Benteen or Reno except when Benteen first came up and the three were together, out of Godfrey's hearing range. That was when Reno said, No. Almost a half hour later, Weir decided to try again, but never reached either Reno or Benteen, but thought better of it, turned and took his striker and headed out, never having sought permission or denied permission. Edgerly thought Weir had received the go-ahead, and so, followed. It's in the book.

"If nothing else fits, then whatever is left over must be the answer."

Best wishes,
Fred.

[Bruce Robert]

I suspect Reno's command would have fallen. One point comes to mind. Reno's "charge" was a direct threat to the encampment, and demanded an aggressive response. Once Reno's command was driven away, the threat lessened. It still needed to be contained, but not destroyed. Had Custer's command retreated - say North - and had taken up a defensive position, would the NA's have treated this threat similar to Reno? As a side note, would the charge/retreat/rout/maneuver, take your pick, from LSH towards Deep Ravine and closer to the villages, generate a more aggresive response leading to the massacre?

[noggy]

Jan 24, 2022 11:15:20 GMT -6 Bruce Robert said:

Had Custer's command retreated - say North - and had taken up a defensive position, would the NA's have treated this threat similar to Reno? 

Well, is there even such a place in the North? I have never been to the battlefield myself, but know that even if Reno Hill was by no means optimal as a densive position, it could at least be defended and fortified to a degree where every single soldier could not be shot by concealed warriors, or just bombarded with indirect fire (arrows) until they could be over-run. Also, albeit under extremely dangerous condition, water could be brought from the river. On LSH, soldiers just withered away (not sure if this is the right phrase) since there was no cover apart from dead horses and bodies. The warriors got close enough to pick them off, and that was it. 

But I now many here are familair with the battlefield, are there any places on the field's Northern parts one might call a good defensive position? If there was on an GAC held it, the NA's would probably have enough warriors to hold both units in place. But they might have felt pressured to destroy at least one of them, since otherwise they would be leaving a very large number of troopers in their rear when they broke camp, as opposed to in real life when GAC's 5 companies where wiped out. That being said, I don*t think GAC's men could have held out as long as Reno's men, due to lack of water. They would probaby have had to do something, and the warriors would have to react.


All the best,
Noggy

[Colt45]

The best direction for Custer to have retreated to was to the east. The reason for this is that moving east removes Custer from the vicinity of the village, thus lessening the threat level to the village. Wolf Tooth and his merry band were off to the east, in general, but their size would not have prevented an easterly retreat.

Now having said that, we must remember that the Indians had a vote in this and their rapid pressure on Custer would have forced Custer to make the retreat decision well before he began a withdrawal away from the river and the flats. His delay on Cemetery Ridge closed the door on moving east, plus his mounts were undoubtedly exhausted and could have been caught by the faster Indian ponies, plus some of his men were without mounts.

The same situation applies to a northern retreat with regards to timing and exhausted horses, but moving north would allow Custer to be closer to Terry's forces who were coming from the north. As to defensible terrain to the north, most likely somewhere could have been found to defend, but it would have been a place with no access to water.

[wild]

The combat effectiveness before the rout was questionable.
Mounted infantry or dismounted cavalry are simply disasters waiting to happen.
Rather like shipborne paratroopers.
That the 7th had any combat credibility was down to the opposition who were mounted snipers.
cheers

[noggy]

Jan 28, 2022 1:54:40 GMT -6 wild said:

Mounted infantry or dismounted cavalry are simply disasters waiting to happen.

Unless we call them dragoons

Noggy

[Bruce Robert]

Interesting points. My main question, which was not made clear, was one of speculation. Aggressively attacking Reno's command makes sense from a self-preservation perspective. The same with the ever increasing pressure being brought to Custer's command.

As a side note: I am of the opinion that there was quite a bit more pressure earlier on than some others have proposed. Which might explain some of the strange to me decisions by Custer. Perhaps Custer's last real chance was sometime during the movement away from ford B/C.

In either case, the speculation is this: How aggressive might the enemy have been if they saw Custer "retreating" rather than continuing to make his way down to the village. I ask this as I find the idea interesting, though purely guesswork (I suppose a sort of getting inside the minds of the NA's). Not even so much whether or not he found a decent piece of ground for defence, but simply that he no longer appeared to be a direct threat to the woman and children etc.

[noggy]

Jan 28, 2022 15:04:04 GMT -6 Bruce Robert said:

As a side note: I am of the opinion that there was quite a bit more pressure earlier on than some others have proposed. Which might explain some of the strange to me decisions by Custer. Perhaps Custer's last real chance was sometime during the movement away from ford B/C.

In either case, the speculation is this: How aggressive might the enemy have been if they saw Custer "retreating" rather than continuing to make his way down to the village. I ask this as I find the idea interesting, though purely guesswork (I suppose a sort of getting inside the minds of the NA's). Not even so much whether or not he found a decent piece of ground for defence, but simply that he no longer appeared to be a direct threat to the woman and children etc.

GAC moved North at a point where he, as far as I can understand, knew what was happening in the Valley with Reno (I have a topic for this I want to post but health BS/fear of dying put me off writing stuff of any value for a while, will try to post it soon). But real pressure on his Battalion seems to have first happened after the feint/whatever near Ford B (I know people support different theories, so i won't go into that).

Second part of the question is interesting, because I know there are many people who disagree on how the "Custer Battalion" was deployed. Most will say two companies going to the North and being destroyed around/on LSH, with the other three being flanked on the Southern parts of BR. It is also a question of timing. What was Reno/Benteen's command doing at the time GAC were closest to the village? Runs The Enemy took part in a charge against Calhoun Hill, retreated, went on a hike around BR and looked at how the party was going near LSH, and then went back; if his story is so-so correct, the NAs  had at some point gotten a decent control of the field and the two US Wings closest to the village were also (if I'm not wrong) in the worst terrain and wiped out. ( North-South, South-North flow excluded). 

I do believe that if a 400 man strong unit like Reno's were to dig in close to the village, it would have prompted the NAs to either kill them off, or move out in a hurry with a detachment of warriors checking them. 

All the best,
Noggy

[backwater]

Seems the same NA's attacked at the rosebud. A week later they have sitting bull's falling soldiers dream plus reno is routed. Custer seems on defensive soon after maybe starting at ford B by moving back. Na's peak of power and morale plus defending their people. I think that was what Custer had to deal with. He couldn't have felt great about any orders after crossing north/out of medicine tail. Not enough space/time to regroup and skirmish lines probably flanked before they were fully deployed. Just my latest daydream, probably read it here. Hope your feeling better mr noggy

[wild]

Custer's command was in motion while in contact with the enemy. He had no covering force , no fallback position.
He was moving South - North across the enemies front in line astern. In fact it could be stated that the enemy was closer to his rear units than he was.
He had so maneuvered his force as to place it perfectly for double envelopment [pincer movement]and the enemy effortlessly obliged him. [Keogh was possibly still fighting when resistance ceased on LSH.]

Dragoons are not a stand alone element but rather act in a support role.
Custer's 7th cavalry was no more than colonial horse suited mainly for attacking unsuspecting villages/settlements.
Simply put ...the village was too big , and he arrived [ unlike Bedfor F] the slowest with the leastest.
Cheers

[wild]

"Had Custer's command retreated - say North - and had taken up a defensive position, would the NA's have treated this threat similar to Reno?"

This is termed a "convoluted" feint or demonstration.
It helps enormously to have the escape route reccied and if possible to fall back on elements of your own forces. [Reno's maneuver was kinda enforced]
Also Reno was rescued [twice].
I would suggest that a gallant last stand was more in keeping with the Custer brand than a rescue.
Best

[crzhrs]

RE: In either case, the speculation is this: How aggressive might the enemy have been if they saw Custer "retreating" rather than continuing to make his way down to the village. I ask this as I find the idea interesting, though purely guesswork (I suppose a sort of getting inside the minds of the NA's). Not even so much whether or not he found a decent piece of ground for defence, but simply that he no longer appeared to be a direct threat to the woman and children etc.

________________________


When Reno retreated this emboldened the Indians and Reno ended up getting routed.

When the Weir advance retreated in an unorganized manner this emboldened the Indians. Only Godfrey's quick ordering of skirmishers slowed the Indians down.

If Custer retreated more than likely the same thing would have happened.

From all accounts from frontiersmen the worse thing you could do is run!

[Bruce Robert]

I suspect the indians were highly aggressive before Reno's retreat/rout. Reno's retreat/rout may have further emboldened the enemy, yet they didn't aggressively follow up the ravine into what was initially a confused and disorganized unit. The position Reno luckily came upon afforded some decent defense, which would have factored into the decision to not make an all out attack, whereas LSH did not make for a good defense, but the movement away from the villages might also have been a factor. If I may be so bold as to speak for the indians "we drove away the enemy, a type of victory, and successfully defended our people. Why risk further direct assault?"

If Custer had withdrawn from the area, might that not have lessened the need/desire to seek complete destruction of custer's command? Again I ask as a way to imagine what the NA's were thinking, which I recognize is speculative at best. Or, was it simply seeing some of the enemy as vulnerable to being wiped out, so let's get them, and isolate the others.