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Post by barneytom on Dec 24, 2021 11:02:14 GMT -6
How effective, in combat, do you guys think Reno's battalion would have been after they retreated from the valley? How long would they have actually stood their ground in the open field before collapsing again? I understand they did hold out against the Native Americans, until General Terry showed up, but that was defensive. Would they have stood their ground if the got caught in the open on their way to Weir Peaks?
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Post by noggy on Dec 25, 2021 15:13:39 GMT -6
How effective, in combat, do you guys think Reno's battalion would have been after they retreated from the valley? How long would they have actually stood their ground in the open field before collapsing again? I understand they did hold out against the Native Americans, until General Terry showed up, but that was defensive. Would they have stood their ground if the got caught in the open on their way to Weir Peaks? Well, there are many factors here I feel could be crucial. In the "open", as you phrase it, Springfields would be a force to reckon with. But if the terrain allowed warriors to come closer with magazine rifles, bows etc, the troopers would be mowed down without fortifications. So where they decided to make a stand would be of big importance. I'm not familiar with the ground, but the East side of the river has always struck me as one ripe with opportunities for a side who would want to get closer to their enemy and minimizing their range advantage. If we are talking about just Reno and not Benteen's companies, they would have run out of ammo due to poor leadership and fire discipline; they seem to have spent almost half of their rounds shooting at and missing for the most part tipi poles. If we talk about their combined companies, I'm not sure what their ammo situation was. I know the companies left Reno Hill not as a unit but more strung out, but bringing the wounded with them, so I guess they would have ammo in large quantities available. This isn't a real "answer", just my own ramblings The question is very valid. Hope more people chime in. Merry Christmas! Noggy
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Post by barneytom on Dec 25, 2021 18:43:20 GMT -6
I meant just Reno's command after he was routed. If they had been moving toward Weir point, and the natives attacked them. Would they have been an effective fighting force or would their morale just collapse again? It had not been very long from their first rout and I cannot imagine them putting up a stiff resistance any longer. I would think their morale would still be pretty low.
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Post by backwater on Dec 25, 2021 18:44:48 GMT -6
I would think about as long as their brothers to the north.
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Post by noggy on Dec 27, 2021 5:30:15 GMT -6
I meant just Reno's command after he was routed. If they had been moving toward Weir point, and the natives attacked them. Would they have been an effective fighting force or would their morale just collapse again? It had not been very long from their first rout and I cannot imagine them putting up a stiff resistance any longer. I would think their morale would still be pretty low. They would not be capable of a long fight, that's for sure, unless they became disciplined and accurate marksmen all of the sudden. They would be lacking in both morale, fresh horses and men (I include the ones hiding in the wooden area here, as they would not rejoin any time soon). Fred may arrest me here, but with their KIAs, MIAs and wounded, that left Reno with... 2/thirds of his battalion or something, or even worse if you count the scouts who had left. Again, where they made a stand/the terrain, would be a factor, but lets just say my money would not being on them having great success. All the best, Noggy
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Post by Colt45 on Dec 27, 2021 7:32:23 GMT -6
barney, After retreating and before Benteen joined Reno, Reno's force had lost its combat effectiveness. His ammo was quite low and the unit was completely disorganized. On the hilltop Benteen was able to get ammo to the troops and the consolidation of the two forces began.
Reno incurred most of his losses during the breakout and subsequent movement to the hilltop. The defensive position there, while not ideal, was the best available location for the 2 units to reorganize and setup a defense.
Had the Reno/Benteen forces continued on past Weir point to get to Custer, they would not have survived. The pullback to the defensive site was the only logical action, and the one that kept them alive.
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Post by barneytom on Dec 27, 2021 8:07:33 GMT -6
I had not seen this question asked before. Me being an armchair general, wanted more opinions on the subject. I do not believe the people who condemn Reno and Benteen take this factor into account or I have never seen it factor into their arguments. I believe, I have seen Fred touch on it when discussing reorganizing and resupplying Reno's men and how long it would take.
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Post by noggy on Dec 27, 2021 12:53:39 GMT -6
barney, After retreating and before Benteen joined Reno, Reno's force had lost its combat effectiveness. His ammo was quite low and the unit was completely disorganized. On the hilltop Benteen was able to get ammo to the troops and the consolidation of the two forces began. Reno incurred most of his losses during the breakout and subsequent movement to the hilltop. The defensive position there, while not ideal, was the best available location for the 2 units to reorganize and setup a defense. Had the Reno/Benteen forces continued on past Weir point to get to Custer, they would not have survived. The pullback to the defensive site was the only logical action, and the one that kept them alive. In addition, and as always I may be very wrong here, on Weir Point they would not have had any water sources. On Reno Hill they could, under fire but at least aided by counter-fire, get some water from the river. The approach towards Weir Point was also a disjointed affair, they could have been cut into pieces and destroyed like GACs companies. This was about the Reno companies. I'm under no illusions they would have been wiped out if caught in the open. All the best, Noggy
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Post by Yan Taylor on Dec 27, 2021 14:51:06 GMT -6
I think that the fact they moved back to Reno made them less a threat to the village, if they had made a stand around Weir and its hills, they would have faced the full force of Indian all armed with plenty of captured weapons and with the will to wipe them out. Being in full sight of the village would make the Indians count them as dangerous and a valid threat. Out of sight on Reno hill, not much of a threat and less dangerous.
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Post by fred on Dec 27, 2021 16:35:38 GMT -6
Weir Point was completely indefensible and anyone telling you it was otherwise has no idea what he or she is talking about.
First off, there was no access to water, and as difficult as it was to fetch water from Reno Hill, there was absolutely no way it could have been gotten from Weir. If you look at a map of that vicinity, you will notice the west side of the twin peaks was above a wide open flats area where a small group of Indians from the Spotted Tail Agency had camped, and it was a considerable distance from the river. Next, there was no place to put the wounded, and there was no area to sequester 175 mules.
Then there was the issue of Indians and how close they could get to the peaks and the loaf. The entire area is loaded with ravines and defiles that could hide warriors who chanced getting closer. In addition, the proximity of the heights of SSR posed a problem, as did attempts to get behind (to the south) of the command. The whole idea of trying to defend Weir is laughable.
While Reno Hill was not the most ideal defensive position, it was certainly better than any other spot on that entire battlefield, from the Custer fields all the way south. It afforded a measure of protection for the animals and the wounded (in that swale area); it gave the men a reasonable chance at securing some water; and it provided fairly decent fields of fire in all directions, including the bluffs' proximity to the valley, something lacking at Weir Point. And lastly, SSR was far enough away to make any firing from that area problematic. I know men were killed from shots either from SSR or some defiles closer to the position, but those were, in general, lucky shots that seemed to be silenced with the sharpshooting of Tom French and John Ryan... who had the weapons to take out someone atop SSR. I also know there were some reports of Indian sharpshooters atop SSR (White Cow Bull[crap] claimed to be one!!!!!... among many of his exploits that day... including killing Custer at Ford B... ummmm), but I believe much of that was exaggerated. I cannot remember off the top of my head, but I believe the distance from the southern end of SSR to the northeastern-most part of Reno Hill is something in excess of 1,000 yards, so figure it out.
Anyway, I think once those troops were reasonably well ensconced on Reno Hill, it would have taken a strong, concerted effort, well organized and coordinated, for those warriors to have overrun the Reno-Benteen command. It seems they hadn't quite the stomach for such an effort, and I cannot blame them. They were a damn sight smarter than that.
Best wishes and Happy New Year to all, Fred.
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Post by crzhrs on Dec 28, 2021 9:05:14 GMT -6
The Weir "Advance" was done without orders. It was Weir who decided to look for Custer.
The "Advance" was done in piecemeal with a number of wounded bringing up the rear.
Once Weir reached a high point they saw off in the distance what looked like a large number of Indians shooting at objects on the ground. Soldiers thought they were hunting buffalo!
Indians saw the Weir "Advance" and immediately charged the soldiers who were so Gung-Ho to help Custer fled in disorder. It was only Godfrey who had the sense to set up skirmishers who more than likely saved Weir et al from being over run.
They eventually made it back to Reno Hill and dug in. Still they suffered casualties from Indians infiltrating their position. Some got so close officers ordered a counter charge to drive the warriors back.
The Indians felt the soldiers were no threat to the village afterwards and continued to harass them but not charge them. It wasn't worth the risk to them and felt the village was not vulnerable.
They Indians eventually left after feeling they did what they had to and broke up into smaller camps.
Terry finally showed up and rescued the command.
A say ending to a disastrous "battle"
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Post by AZ Ranger on Dec 29, 2021 7:54:55 GMT -6
Weir never advanced further than the top of Weir. He was consistent with viewing events before they reached the rest of the regiment. I think his company took off of its own volition. The company never got close to entering MTC let alone crossing Deep Coulee.
What Weir did should have been ordered, and he took the initiative. He was on a viewpoint outpost. He personally went no further.
Regards
AZ Ranger
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Post by Yan Taylor on Dec 29, 2021 8:52:18 GMT -6
I think that Reno, Benteen and even Weir, knew when it was time to stop, Reno pulled up short in the valley, Benteen did similar on the peaks and even the fire brand Weir had the nouse to stay put. All three knew that anymore forward advances would have catastrophic results, the only officer who didn't see the danger was Custer.
Happy New Year Everyone Ian
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Post by fred on Dec 29, 2021 11:15:21 GMT -6
I think that Reno, Benteen and even Weir, knew when it was time to stop, Reno pulled up short in the valley, Benteen did similar on the peaks and even the fire brand Weir had the nouse to stay put. All three knew that anymore forward advances would have catastrophic results, the only officer who didn't see the danger was Custer. Happy New Year Everyone Ian I agree, totally... including the Happy New Year. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by noggy on Dec 29, 2021 13:28:40 GMT -6
When I was a kid, me an a friend decided to play hide and seek. However, we both thought the other one was the seeker, so we just hid for what seemed like ages. Another time, I thought we were playing hide and seek so I hid. Turned out my friend thought we would go to play football. Turned out both were very difficult to pull off when both weren't quite updated on what was actually going on Either way, Happy New Year to everyone here. Geir
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